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	<title>Comments on: A giant leap in logic from a piece of bad science</title>
	<atom:link href="http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/</link>
	<description>Contains Reason. Not Excuses.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:57:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Does this count as a reply? &#171; Anomalous Distraction</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-2/#comment-18040</link>
		<dc:creator>Does this count as a reply? &#171; Anomalous Distraction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-18040</guid>
		<description>[...] Does this count as a&#160;reply?  A reply by proxy&#8230; I think. Dr Rachie has pointed me at this page on Interhomeopathy.org where an editorial mentions (amongst other fallacies) an apparent reply regarding criticism of the &#8220;Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells&#8221; paper, aka Frenkel et al. Aficionados of woo will know that this paper was mentioned by the UK&#8217;s most credulous member of Parliament, David Tredinnick MP, in this EDM.  One of the major criticisms of Frenkel et al is the disturbing lack of statistical analysis in the paper. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Does this count as a&nbsp;reply?  A reply by proxy&#8230; I think. Dr Rachie has pointed me at this page on Interhomeopathy.org where an editorial mentions (amongst other fallacies) an apparent reply regarding criticism of the &#8220;Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells&#8221; paper, aka Frenkel et al. Aficionados of woo will know that this paper was mentioned by the UK&#8217;s most credulous member of Parliament, David Tredinnick MP, in this EDM.  One of the major criticisms of Frenkel et al is the disturbing lack of statistical analysis in the paper. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Fran Sheffield jumps the shark.</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-2/#comment-17255</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Fran Sheffield jumps the shark.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 05:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-17255</guid>
		<description>[...] readers might remember her being responsible for the e-newsletter alerting us to the &#8220;homeopathy cures breast cancer study&#8221; which myself and David Gorski subsequently took to pieces. Sadly, only a few weeks ago this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] readers might remember her being responsible for the e-newsletter alerting us to the &#8220;homeopathy cures breast cancer study&#8221; which myself and David Gorski subsequently took to pieces. Sadly, only a few weeks ago this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Winchester&#8217;s MP Steve Brine supports Homeopathy Motions! &#171; The Hampshire Skeptics Society</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-2/#comment-16410</link>
		<dc:creator>Winchester&#8217;s MP Steve Brine supports Homeopathy Motions! &#171; The Hampshire Skeptics Society</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jul 2010 08:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16410</guid>
		<description>[...] him if he&#8217;d read  the (deeply flawed) scientific paper that it quotes and pointed him to a  critique of the paper. In short, I warned, the study is seriously flawed and the results in the paper are not to be [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] him if he&#8217;d read  the (deeply flawed) scientific paper that it quotes and pointed him to a  critique of the paper. In short, I warned, the study is seriously flawed and the results in the paper are not to be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Frenkel rides again &#171; XtalDave&#39;s Blog O&#39;Science</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16395</link>
		<dc:creator>Frenkel rides again &#171; XtalDave&#39;s Blog O&#39;Science</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16395</guid>
		<description>[...] at low concentrations, can have profound effects on cells. For more information see take-downs by Dr Rachie and Orac. It is also worthy of note that it appears that an unwitting author on the paper has come [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at low concentrations, can have profound effects on cells. For more information see take-downs by Dr Rachie and Orac. It is also worthy of note that it appears that an unwitting author on the paper has come [...]</p>
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		<title>By: skeptic</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16281</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 04:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16281</guid>
		<description>Peter Dingle has a PhD thesis in indoor Air Quality titled
Personal exposure to formaldehyde (1995)

Book Bib ID 634476 
Author Dingle, Peter
    
Description 1995. 
xv, 185 leaves : ill. ; 30 cm. 
 
Notes Thesis submitted to the School of Biological and Environmental Sciences.

Thesis (PhD)--Murdoch University, 1995.

Bibliography: leaves 151-170.
 
Subjects Formaldehyde - Environmental aspects.  &#124;  Formaldehyde - Toxicology.  &#124;  Indoor air pollution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Dingle has a PhD thesis in indoor Air Quality titled<br />
Personal exposure to formaldehyde (1995)</p>
<p>Book Bib ID 634476<br />
Author Dingle, Peter</p>
<p>Description 1995.<br />
xv, 185 leaves : ill. ; 30 cm. </p>
<p>Notes Thesis submitted to the School of Biological and Environmental Sciences.</p>
<p>Thesis (PhD)&#8211;Murdoch University, 1995.</p>
<p>Bibliography: leaves 151-170.</p>
<p>Subjects Formaldehyde &#8211; Environmental aspects.  |  Formaldehyde &#8211; Toxicology.  |  Indoor air pollution.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabor Hrasko</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16274</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabor Hrasko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16274</guid>
		<description>Argh.... sorry for my pure English above!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Argh&#8230;. sorry for my pure English above!</p>
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		<title>By: Gabor Hrasko</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16273</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabor Hrasko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16273</guid>
		<description>You wrote: &quot;The paper examines the effects of ultra-dilute remedies (read:homeopathy)...&quot;

I recommend not to equate the - hoped - effect of ultra-diluted remedies with homeopathy in this simple way. The reason is twofold. At first there ARE homeopathic remedies that not so ultra-diluted and possibly still contain molecules of the &quot;active ingredient&quot;. The second is that the system of homeopathy is much more than using ultra-diluted remedies. Its other main point is the simile rule. And that is at least as unscientific than the dilution rule.
.

Time-by-time we will see &quot;positive&quot; studies about biological, biophysical effects of ultra-diluted solutions and no-one will be able to explain those. That is the life of doing experiments. If there would be a real scientific theory behind it, one would be able to adjust the experiment and finally figure out if the positive results are real results or artifacts. But here the simile effect and other rules of homeopathy do not help. Who knows why this remedy works and the other does not. Are they doing those type of trials? Why do the effect does not follow a clear pattern related to the degree of dilution?
.

If one would like to use these type of experiments as proof of homeopathy, he does not only have to show that there is an effect. The effect should follow the rules of homeopathy. Otherwise the effect is indistinguishable of a potential error in the setup - even if possibly will never know what that error was.
.

A respected physicist spent many years with the sophistication of the Michelson-Morley experiment and finally he came up with a clear, statistically positive result! Speed of light was different in different directions. Does that mean that special relativity is void and there is ether? No! It was most probably an artifact, an error in the experiment, but no-one know what it could be. That was an anomaly.
.

This is the same as with the &quot;proofs&quot; of acupuncture when using needles causes release of adenozin or endofins etc. It is NOT the proof of acupuncture as acupuncture is not ONLY puncturing needles anywhere anyhow. It should be placed into specific locations and in specific depth. Thus those positive results could mean something and they might even be relevant in some cases, but they are clearly not proof of acupuncture itself.
.

In the same way these experiments are either artifacts or really proofs that ultra-diluted remedies could have effects. It can not be decided. But we could have good guesses based on our general knowledge. It is most probably an artifact. It is not our duty to find the error in the experiment. It is the duty of the advocates of homeopathy to prove that these results are relevant in the aspect of homeopathy. Because it is not at all clear for me. The results does not follow the patterns that are predicted by the rules of homeopathy - plus they contradict with all known chemical, physical knowledge.
.

Do not give them a high ball to simply denying these results. These experiments shows something. They show the same for 30 years. There was no progress at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You wrote: &#8220;The paper examines the effects of ultra-dilute remedies (read:homeopathy)&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I recommend not to equate the &#8211; hoped &#8211; effect of ultra-diluted remedies with homeopathy in this simple way. The reason is twofold. At first there ARE homeopathic remedies that not so ultra-diluted and possibly still contain molecules of the &#8220;active ingredient&#8221;. The second is that the system of homeopathy is much more than using ultra-diluted remedies. Its other main point is the simile rule. And that is at least as unscientific than the dilution rule.<br />
.</p>
<p>Time-by-time we will see &#8220;positive&#8221; studies about biological, biophysical effects of ultra-diluted solutions and no-one will be able to explain those. That is the life of doing experiments. If there would be a real scientific theory behind it, one would be able to adjust the experiment and finally figure out if the positive results are real results or artifacts. But here the simile effect and other rules of homeopathy do not help. Who knows why this remedy works and the other does not. Are they doing those type of trials? Why do the effect does not follow a clear pattern related to the degree of dilution?<br />
.</p>
<p>If one would like to use these type of experiments as proof of homeopathy, he does not only have to show that there is an effect. The effect should follow the rules of homeopathy. Otherwise the effect is indistinguishable of a potential error in the setup &#8211; even if possibly will never know what that error was.<br />
.</p>
<p>A respected physicist spent many years with the sophistication of the Michelson-Morley experiment and finally he came up with a clear, statistically positive result! Speed of light was different in different directions. Does that mean that special relativity is void and there is ether? No! It was most probably an artifact, an error in the experiment, but no-one know what it could be. That was an anomaly.<br />
.</p>
<p>This is the same as with the &#8220;proofs&#8221; of acupuncture when using needles causes release of adenozin or endofins etc. It is NOT the proof of acupuncture as acupuncture is not ONLY puncturing needles anywhere anyhow. It should be placed into specific locations and in specific depth. Thus those positive results could mean something and they might even be relevant in some cases, but they are clearly not proof of acupuncture itself.<br />
.</p>
<p>In the same way these experiments are either artifacts or really proofs that ultra-diluted remedies could have effects. It can not be decided. But we could have good guesses based on our general knowledge. It is most probably an artifact. It is not our duty to find the error in the experiment. It is the duty of the advocates of homeopathy to prove that these results are relevant in the aspect of homeopathy. Because it is not at all clear for me. The results does not follow the patterns that are predicted by the rules of homeopathy &#8211; plus they contradict with all known chemical, physical knowledge.<br />
.</p>
<p>Do not give them a high ball to simply denying these results. These experiments shows something. They show the same for 30 years. There was no progress at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave&#8217;s links of the week, 28 June 2010 &#8211; Dave Hodgkinson Photography</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16267</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave&#8217;s links of the week, 28 June 2010 &#8211; Dave Hodgkinson Photography</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16267</guid>
		<description>[...] in not working against breast cancer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in not working against breast cancer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; A win for science, scepticism and common sense in the House of Commons</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-16236</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; A win for science, scepticism and common sense in the House of Commons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-16236</guid>
		<description>[...] of them I happen to know very well, since I spent the better part of a Saturday back in February debunking the entire paper. The reason I did this was because Richard Saunders had received an e-alert from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of them I happen to know very well, since I spent the better part of a Saturday back in February debunking the entire paper. The reason I did this was because Richard Saunders had received an e-alert from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: AndyD</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-giant-leap-in-logic-from-a-piece-of-bad-science/comment-page-1/#comment-15960</link>
		<dc:creator>AndyD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3019#comment-15960</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;He said that he advised her that it would eventually obstruct her bowels and would cause her much pain. When the Dingles refused to consider an operation, Dr Tabrizian told the couple he would give his own sister the same advice.
.
In her diary, Mrs Dingle wrote: &quot;I really do not like hearing things like that. &lt;b&gt;In the car Pete said I&#039;m lucky I&#039;m not his (Dr Tabrizian&#039;s) sister.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
.
From &lt;a href=&quot;http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/7386004/doctor-told-dingles-three-times-to-get-operation/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The West&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;He said that he advised her that it would eventually obstruct her bowels and would cause her much pain. When the Dingles refused to consider an operation, Dr Tabrizian told the couple he would give his own sister the same advice.<br />
.<br />
In her diary, Mrs Dingle wrote: &#8220;I really do not like hearing things like that. <b>In the car Pete said I&#8217;m lucky I&#8217;m not his (Dr Tabrizian&#8217;s) sister.&#8221;</b>&#8220;</i><br />
.<br />
From <a href="http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/7386004/doctor-told-dingles-three-times-to-get-operation/" rel="nofollow">The West</a>.</p>
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