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	<title>The Skeptics&#039; Book of Pooh-Pooh &#187; OLGR</title>
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		<title>The wash-up from the AVN judgement &#8211; what does it mean?</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2012/02/25/the-avn-judgement-what-does-it-mean/</link>
		<comments>http://scepticsbook.com/2012/02/25/the-avn-judgement-what-does-it-mean/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2012 04:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[anti-vaccination]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Yesterday the AVN won their case against the HCCC on a technicality under Section 7 of the Health Care Complaints Act 1993. This is a hollow victory in my opinion. Here&#8217;s my (IANAL) summary of what happened. Tweet The AVN were never really bothered by the HCCC public warning issued about them. Meryl refused to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday the AVN won their case against the HCCC on a technicality under Section 7 of the Health Care Complaints Act 1993. This is a hollow victory in my opinion. Here&#8217;s my (IANAL) summary of what happened.</p>
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<p>The AVN were never really bothered by the <a href="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/428095_2988811232743_1035941773_32820129_1878524393_n1.jpg" target="_blank">HCCC public warning</a> issued about them. Meryl refused to post it cause &#8220;she didn&#8217;t agree with it&#8221; and was happy to call the HCCC corrupt and slur their reputation far and wide. What the AVN really wanted from this Supreme Court Case was to be granted <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certiorari" target="_blank">certiorari</a>. .</p>
<p>What&#8217;s that you say? Put simply, this means the AVN wanted the Supreme Court to declare the actions of the charity watchdog, the Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing (OLGR) in revoking their charity license, illegal.</p>
<p>To assert this, the AVN focused on the OLGR&#8217;s reliance on the HCCC public warning arguing that if it was deemed not valid, then it followed that the OLGR actions could be lifted. This indeed was the crux of their case.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an excerpt from the judgement</p>
<p><em>- 21 &#8211; The plaintiff submitted that its rights were not only directly affected, but also altered, by the HCCC’s decision to issue the Public Warning&#8230;It argued that the decision directly exposed it to a new hazard of an adverse exercise of public power (having its fundraising capacity revoked).</em></p>
<p>But the judge was not convinced</p>
<p><em>&#8220;However, the plaintiff could not point to any provision in the Charitable Fundraising Act 1991 that made the Public Warning a mandatory relevant consideration in the Minister’s decision whether to revoke the authority.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>As a result of this, the judge made the following decision</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Accordingly there is no basis on which I could find that the Minister for Gaming is legally obliged to take into account the Public Warning. For these reasons, certiorari does not lie.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>This is the important bit. Whilst it is true that the OLGR <a href="http://www.olgr.nsw.gov.au/charitable_latest_news.asp" target="_blank">took the HCCC warning into account</a> when making the decision, as the judge pointed out, this was not a legal obligation and the loss of their charity license was for reasons much more serious.</p>
<p>An <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/50933157/OLGRresponse18102010complete" target="_blank">audit</a> of the AVN by the OLGR found several serious breaches of the Charitable Trusts Act 1993 which have now been referred to the Department of Justice and Attorney General and are awaiting decisions. In revoking the AVN&#8217;s charity licence the OLGR cited three reasons; that monies had been raised for specific purposes then <a href="http://luckylosing.com/2011/07/17/how-meryl-dorey-scammed-and-stole-11000-from-avn-members-andor-donors/" target="_blank">spent elsewhere</a>, that monies had not been administered properly, and it was in the public interest as the AVN were dishonest in denying an anti-vaccine agenda. The final point cited the HCCC warning in support, but was concerned with the contents of the AVN website.</p>
<p>Meanwhile in Meryl-land</p>
<p><em>&#8220;…the OLGR had found several errors with the network’s bookkeeping system and some minor problems with the way in which fundraising income was accounted for… errors which any small, volunteer-run organisation can and does make…&#8221;</em></p>
<p>With respect to the AVN website the OLGR said,</p>
<p><em>&#8220;The Organisation’s website is misleading in that it may lead people making donations to believe that they are donating to a cause which promotes vaccination whereas the Organisation adopts an anti-vaccination position.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>(Indeed, the judge even enquired as to why the AVN were so &#8220;coy&#8221; with respect to their anti-vaccine agenda. Meryl can deny it until she&#8217;s blue in the face, but nobody is falling for that one anymore).</p>
<p>Then</p>
<p><em>&#8220;When requested by the HCCC to publish a disclaimer on its website the Organisation failed to do so.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>So as you can see, the OLGR did not rely solely on the HCCC warning when making their decision and as the judge stated, neither did they have any legal obligation to do so.</p>
<p>So as far as I can see, nothing has changed as far as the OLGR issues. The AVN are still in the shit in this regard, and I can&#8217;t see any reason why the OLGR would back down now.</p>
<p>The HCCC warning constituted but a small part <em>in support of</em> their actions, indeed as much as being cited as supporting evidence for their website being misleading. But this is by no means the only evidence that the AVN website is full to the brim with anti-vaccine canards. Just ask anyone who knows anything about the anti-vaccine movement (pick me! pick me!).</p>
<p>Now Meryl is not known for her comprehension skills, but even I was a little surprised by her interpretation of what I have just explained to you above. From her victory e-newsletter.</p>
<p><em>&#8220;This (HCCC) warning led to the OLGR revoking our charity authority to fundraise though they were under no legal obligation to do so.</em></p>
<p>No Meryl. It&#8217;s a bit more complicated than that.</p>
<p>Which brings me to another point. Meryl is now claiming that the decision yesterday found the 2 complaints used by the HCCC to investigate the AVN to be invalid. This is absolutely not the case.</p>
<p>The court found that the HCCC investigated the complaints under Section 7 of the Health Care Complaints Act 1993 which allows for an individual to complain about an unregistered health practitioner or service. This was the technicality I was referring to earlier.</p>
<p>The judge asserted that the Ken McLeod complaint needed to provide evidence of a person being directly influenced about their vaccination decision as a direct result of the AVN&#8217;s website (the subject of the investigation by the HCCC) in the form of one person who showed they made a decision based on the AVN website. And if not Section 7 did not apply.</p>
<p>From the judgement</p>
<p><em>&#8220;..all I needed to be satisfied of was that at least one person had read the plaintiff’s website and that its contents had affected that person’s decision whether to vaccinate, or have another person  (usually a child) vaccinated. It was not necessary that any particular person be identified. &#8221; </em></p>
<p>The HCCC lawyers could not provide this evidence, thus the investigation was declared illegal and the public health warning quashed. No judgement was made about the validity of the complaints, nor the information contained within them. The judgement was purely based on the HCCC investigating the complaints under the wrong section of the legislation.</p>
<p>Likewise, there was no discussion about the validity of the HCCC&#8217;s conclusions that the AVN&#8217;s information is misleading and purely antivax. This still stands. The judge&#8217;s ruling was purely based on the HCCC using the wrong section of the legislation to investigate the AVN.</p>
<p>But over in Meryl land;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;I am just so pleased that the Supreme Court agreed with our original contention that the HCCC had no jurisdiction to investigate us based on the complaints which were not valid complaints according to the HCC Act (sic).&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Wrong again. And there&#8217;s more on the HCCC having jurisdiction over the AVN below.</p>
<p>So the AVN got off on a technicality. Damn nation you might shout, how can this happen? What the hell is wrong with the HCCC?</p>
<p>Well let me tell you some good things that came out of this case.</p>
<p>When the HCCC first received these complaints they were unsure how to deal with them because in the classical sense, the AVN were not a health care provider. They didn&#8217;t openly offer medical advice (but they did do it), they didn&#8217;t take blood or massage you, so they fell between the gaps of the HCCC legislation.</p>
<p>Indeed, in the early days, Meryl asserted everywhere she went that the HCCC did not have jurisdiction over the AVN because she was not a health care provider. She said it. Everywhere.</p>
<p>But by suing the HCCC, she has performed an epic foot bullet. She gone done and got herself legally classified as a health care service.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what the judgement says:</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Vaccination is a matter about health. The provision of information about vaccination is a health education service. It is common ground, and I accept, that the plaintiff is a “health service provider” within the meaning of s 4 of the Act since it provides “health education services”.</em></p>
<p>What does this mean? Well it means we have precedent and she now opens herself up to a whole lot more litigation as she is now officially a health service provider.</p>
<p>Whoops.</p>
<p>So prior this case, when she had been running around saying the HCCC had no jurisdiction over her? Maybe they didn&#8217;t but they absolutely and officially and technically do now.</p>
<p>So whilst the AVN are screaming victory from the rooftops, some of us have bothered to read the judgement and what we see is something of a hollow victory for the AVN. I certainly can&#8217;t see any evidence for the OLGR loosening their grip on the AVN&#8217;s precious charity license and this is ultimately what the AVN want back.</p>
<p>In closing, there are a couple of other interesting things about this case which are worth mentioning. During the lengthy discussions about whether there was any evidence for the AVN directly influencing someone to not vaccinate, the judge made the following statement</p>
<p><em>&#8220;&#8230;the health service has not been shown to “affect the clinical management or care of an individual client”. Although it might have that tendency, and although the plaintiff hopes to have that effect, I do not consider this to be sufficient to establish that it has had that effect.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Note; &#8220;..<strong>the plaintiff hopes to have that effect</strong>..&#8221; In other words, there was no evidence that the 20 years of research and constant campaigning and thousands of Facebook posts and tweets are having any effect on peoples&#8217; decisions about vaccinating. Jeez. That&#8217;s a kick in the face to the AVN isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>And finally, all the reports on this story have referred to the AVN as anti-vaccine, despite Meryl continuing to deny her group is. This has made made one of Meryl&#8217;s mates pretty annoyed and she wrote about it this morning (h/t Dave the Happy Singer)</p>
<p>From the AVN Y! Group, from <a href="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/462747_10150816896888312_626828311_12316677_595176983_o1.jpg" target="_blank">Fran Sheffield of Homeopathy Plus!</a></p>
<p>&#8211;<br />
<em>&#8220;I think almost everyone, supporters and non-supporters, believe the AVN is antivaccine in spite of its protests to the contrary.</em></p>
<p><em> How can they do otherwise when 99.9% of information about vaccines released by the AVN is anti or reveals their problems? When there is not explanation why this imbalance exists?</em></p>
<p><em> It is possible to be BOTH anti-vaccine and pro-choice but when the anti-vaccine label is denied in the face of evidence to the contrary, it makes us look dishonest &#8211; something the judge hinted at with her &#8216;coy&#8217; statement? It also places our pro-choice position in the back seat, out of people&#8217;s minds.</em></p>
<p><em> As far as public opinion goes, I don&#8217;t think the anti-vaccine position is the problem &#8211; they can cope with that. </em></p>
<p><em> The problem is that most people, even supporters in secret, now believe the AVN is dishonest and this has caused the AVN more harm than anything else. This is what will take a long time to get over, not any perceived anti-vaccine stance which they can respect even it they don&#8217;t agree.</em></p>
<p><em> Do we have a blind spot?</em></p>
<p><em> If the AVN wants to be perceived as being a truthful organisation then it has to proudly accept the anti-vaccine label or do something that explains (repeatedly) why most of the information it provides about vaccines and vaccine promoters is negative.</em><br />
&#8212;</p>
<p>Watch out Meryl. Even your mates are seeing through you now.</p>
<p>PS If you are a lawyer and spot any obvious errors in my interpretation of the judgement, please leave a comment below</p>
<p>Please see this recent update from Reasonable Hank where Meryl claims the OLGR based their actions entirely on the HCCC <a href="http://reasonablehank.com/2012/02/25/did-the-olgr-rely-completely-on-the-hccc-public-warning-to-revoke-the-avns-cfa/" target="_blank">warning</a>. I have no words.  </p>
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		<title>Hypocrites much?</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/10/05/hypocrites-much/</link>
		<comments>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/10/05/hypocrites-much/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[anti-vaccination]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[I had reason to be flicking through the pages of Living Wisdom magazine tonight (the publication of the AVN) for a little light research. Tweet Odd that this should happen really, since I often get accused of not reading what the anti-vaxers have to say. This couldn&#8217;t be further from the truth. In additional to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had reason to be flicking through the pages of Living Wisdom magazine tonight (the publication of the AVN) for a little light research.</p>
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<p>Odd that this should happen really, since I often get accused of not reading what the anti-vaxers have to say. This couldn&#8217;t be further from the truth. In additional to the tripe on the Facebook pages, the forums, the mailing lists and comments on news articles, I have perused the information pack for <a href="http://scepticsbook.com/2010/01/19/i-object-to-this-reading-material/">conscientious objectors</a>, flicked through Living Wisdom and looky over there &gt;&gt;&gt; a copy of Callous Disregard by Andrew Wakefield.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s more than I suspect they do with respect to research. Although, Meryl Dorey says she reads papers about vaccination but apparently comes away with completely different conclusions to the authors, making the exercise rather futile.</p>
<p>Indeed, the recent HCCC investigation concluded that whilst the AVN may cite peer-reviewed research, they quote selectively from it, often in contradiction to the conclusions or findings of the studies themselves.</p>
<p>Ms Dorey explained this discrepancy with the following:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;It is true that oftentimes, our information will contradict the conclusions or summaries of the studies. This is because, as opposed to most doctors and government officials, we actually read the studies and frequently, the summary and conclusion does not agree with the raw data itself&#8230;..Many times, that disconnect can be explained by the financial links between the study&#8217;s researchers and the companies whose products are being studied. So, whilst the AVN does frequently draw different conclusions to those printed at the end of these articles, it is because our analysis of the data shows that the printed conclusions do not correspond with the raw data. This is not selective reporting &#8211; it is accurate reporting.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Raw data. It doesn&#8217;t mean what you think it means Ms Dorey. And the financial links? Oh course, the old shill canard again. When you &#8216;aint got nothin&#8217; else.. (and you don&#8217;t know <a href="http://www.skeptics.com.au/latest/blog/the-truth-behind-the-avn-claims/">how to read papers</a>).</p>
<p>The AVN have been in oodles of trouble lately, the most recent being for multiple breaches of copyright associated with selling material on their website without permission. Which is funny, because one of the things I came across in the information in Living Wisdom was their permission to reproduce policy:</p>
<h4>&#8220;Whilst reproduction and dissemination of the information found in Living Wisdom is actively encouraged (unless otherwise stated), it is <strong>expressly forbidden</strong> for anyone to reproduce any of this information for the <strong>purpose of profit</strong>&#8230;&#8221;</h4>
<p>My emphasis. </p>
<p>Which directly contradicts the reason they were recently in strife &#8211; for selling other authors&#8217; material on their website, without permission.</p>
<p>An <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/national/copyright-breaches-land-group-in-trouble-20100831-14fna.html">article</a> from the Sydney Morning Herald describes:</p>
<p><strong>&#8220;an anti-vaccination group is under fire for allegedly breaching copyright laws by selling newspaper and medical journal articles online without permission from the authors.</strong></p>
<p><strong>The packs, which were selling for up to $128, included home-made books filled with articles photocopied from journals around the world, information on drugs taken from MIMS, the medical guide used by doctors and nurses, and copies of brochures inserted in medication boxes by pharmaceutical companies.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Under the Copyright Act, articles can be copied for personal research or for use by students but cannot be disseminated widely or sold.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p>In response, Meryl said she was &#8220;unaware she had breached copyright&#8221;. This is despite the fact that she is listed as the editor of Living Wisdom and therefore probably wrote the policy. Even if she didn&#8217;t, one would think it is part of her job to understand copyright restrictions as the editor of a magazine for more than a decade.</p>
<p>But the duplicity of the AVN is something we have come to know well. This is a recent screen capture from their website.</p>
<p><a title="couple of years ago by scepdoll, on Flickr" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/scepdoll/5054244022/"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5054244022_596a88c797.jpg" alt="couple of years ago" width="500" height="168" /></a></p>
<p>So it appears Meryl knew about some of these copyright rules &#8220;a couple of years ago&#8221; at least.</p>
<p>One wonders if the authors contacted by the Sydney Morning Herald decided to take any action against the AVN given some might be owed a nice wad of booty. Based on the AVN&#8217;s permission to reproduce policy, they themselves would be joining a queue to recoup any lost funds. So what&#8217;s good for the goose is good for the gander right?</p>
<p>Oh wait, except when you&#8217;re a bunch of hypocrites.</p>
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		<title>Media coverage of the impending collapse of the AVN</title>
		<link>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/17/media-coverage-of-the-impending-collapse-of-the-avn/</link>
		<comments>http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/17/media-coverage-of-the-impending-collapse-of-the-avn/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 07:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[announcements]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[anti-vaccination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Australian Vaccination Network]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[AVN]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Daily Telegraph]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[HCCC complaint]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meryl Dorey]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[OLGR]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticsbook.com/?p=3097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Last week, Meryl Dorey, President of the AVN announced the group would close its doors &#8220;on or near February 28th&#8221; citing monetary issues as the primary reason. This week, after several emails pleading with her members to step up and donate, or at least pledge to donate, she sent out an e-newsletter where she outlined [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/avn_telegraph_20100216.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-3098" title="avn_telegraph_20100216" src="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/avn_telegraph_20100216.jpg" alt="avn_telegraph_20100216" width="687" height="243" /></a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<p>Last week, Meryl Dorey, President of the AVN announced the group would <a href="http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/07/have-we-seen-the-last-of-the-avn/">close its doors</a> &#8220;on or near February 28th&#8221; citing monetary issues as the primary reason. This week, after several emails pleading with her members to step up and donate, or at least pledge to donate, she sent out an e-newsletter where she outlined what has been a tough year for her and the AVN.</p>
<p>In it she explains that;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;Approximately 12 months ago, an unremitting campaign of harassment began with a complaint filed by an anonymous complainant against the AVN with the Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing (OLGR)&#8230;.This whole situation came to a head about 7 months ago when a complaint was filed against both the AVN and myself with the HCCC. &#8230;.there have been an unending string of complaints filed against both myself and the AVN every time I’m on either the radio, TV or in newspapers. Without fail, the media will receive complaints stating that they should not be interviewing someone like myself who is not only anti-vaccine (in their words), but under investigation to boot!&#8221;</em></p>
<p>and;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;The people who are behind these attacks are, in my own personal opinion, totally without morals and ethics.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>For a complete and delicious take down of this special pleading email, please head over to @fuzztwin&#8217;s <a href="http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=1624">post</a>, which precisely and thoroughly destroys her public baa-ing.</p>
<p>The post you see at the top of this blog was the hard-copy version of the article, which also appeared in the online edition of the Daily Telegraph under the headline; &#8220;<a href="http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/anti-vaccination-group-to-collapse/story-e6freuy9-1225830689187">Anti-vaccination group to collapse</a>&#8221; (which I like much better as you might have guessed).</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/anti-vax-collapse.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-3108" title="anti-vax collapse" src="http://scepticsbook.com/wp-content/uploads/anti-vax-collapse.jpg" alt="anti-vax collapse" width="608" height="676" /></a></p>
<p>Naturally Meryl was very disappointed in this article, telling her email group that;</p>
<p><em>&#8220;I knew I could count on Kate Sikora and the Daily Telegraph to get it all wrong &#8211; even when the information was provided to them in writing. One has to wonder how much pharmaceutical advertising the Daily Telegraph takes in every day and whether that would have any influence on the anti-choice, anti-science stance taken by papers such as the Telegraph?&#8221;</em></p>
<p>(Zing! Big Pharma shill accusation)</p>
<p>and</p>
<p><em>&#8220;The people on Australia are done a great disservice by this article and by the Telegraph&#8217;s continual refusal to allow science-based data on the dangers and ineffectiveness of vaccines to be published.&#8221; (1)<br />
</em></p>
<p>Funny that, I thought it was quite accurate. What was interesting was that according to the article:</p>
<p><strong>&#8220;Contacted twice for comment yesterday, Ms Dorey referred <em>The Daily Telegraph</em> to her email.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p>So she opted to not even speak to the journalist.</p>
<p>The comments also make for some interesting reading. I&#8217;ll bet Meryl would have preferred the one below didn&#8217;t get approved, especially since she is desperately trying to shake off the conspiracy theory tag which has recently stuck to her.</p>
<blockquote><p><cite><strong>Boldarn of N.QLD </strong> <em>Posted at 10:36 AM February 16, 2010</em></cite><br />
As corporate and government lies are exposed increasingly , NWO advocates are panicking and attacking anyone who does not go along with their fascist rules . The mandatory fluoridation of all drinking waters is an important tool of globalists , as it effects the pineal glad ( gland for free thinking ). A fluoridated population is less likely to question anything and is easier to &#8220;manage&#8221; as NWO policies are rolled out over once free nations . Vaccines play a huge part in Agenda 21 &#8211; the NWO population control plan .Good on ya , Meryl Dorey , for your great effort an work ! Please contact me , I am also an activist &amp; would like to send you my free poetry for your use . Peace &#8211;Boldarn</p></blockquote>
<p>I also liked these two;</p>
<blockquote><p><cite><strong>stewart cooper </strong> <em>Posted at 7:49 AM February 16, 2010</em></cite></p>
<p>Gee, I didn&#8217;t know Dick Smith had research level medical qualifications? Do people really listen to this self appointed know all? Witch hunting is alive and well in medieval NSW.</p></blockquote>
<p>the response being;</p>
<blockquote><p><cite><strong>Tom c of Sydney </strong> <em>Posted at 9:53 AM February 16, 2010</em></cite></p>
<p>Gee, I didn&#8217;t know Meryl dorey had <a href="http://scepticsbook.com/2010/01/05/a-lesson-in-the-importance-of-unbiased-proof-reading/">research level medical qualifications</a>? Do people really listen to this self appointed know all? (Hyperlink, mine)</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps Meryl has lost her trust in the media. Maybe because they have ceased taking her information on face value and are beginning to realise she is not someone they should be consulting on issues of vaccine effectiveness and safety. Maybe Meryl&#8217;s time in the spotlight is drawing to a close.</p>
<p>Still, with the results of two complaints with the HCCC and the OLGR auditing the AVN this week, there are likely much more serious things for her to deal with.</p>
<p>If you missed the interview that I did with Ian Woolf from <a href="http://www.diffusionradio.com/2010/02/dr_rachie_vs_antivax_and_dsm_p.html">Diffusion Radio</a> about the AVN and their impending downfall you can listen to it online <a href="http://www.archive.org/details/diffusion2010-02-15">here</a>.</p>
<p>&#8212;-</p>
<p>(1) Message # 42231, sent Monday February 15th, 2010 11:53 pm</p>



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