David exercised superhuman restraint in not getting up and beating that idiot to a pulp

What a harrowing day for the McCafferys… their pain i cannot imagine. Thank you for your dedication and for posting this Maggie

It sounds like it went really well, so I hope it comes across that way in the final presentation.
Well done to you and Richard for going along, representing the scientific case and supporting the McCafferys.
You’re an inspiration to the rest of us!

Thanks for the update Maggie. It sounds very positive from the studio, let’s hope they don’t use the same editors they used on The One or it will look like the scientists are just grumpy closed-minded dimwits.

One small point, I’ve read it multiple times but did you really mean to write in the first paragraph “…clearly stated that the risks of not vaccinating far outweigh the consequences of disease.”

I’ve set the timer for tonight’s show.

Damn. I was going to watch it, but thought it started at 7pm. I only caught the last five minutes. Those antivaxxers just don’t listen, do they?

Good show: they kept the gist of what you wrote in this blog post in the final broadcast edit. And Munro was a great moderator, particularly when he questioned Dorey’s medical qualifications! My thoughts go out to the McCaffery family; it was awesome of them to be there for this.

Louise. Are you having a conversation with yourself? How embarrassing!

The reference to Doctor kickbacks was pure conspiracy theorist nonsense. It was not an argument but a logical fallacy that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of vaccines and is typical of the level of debate relating to this topic. Meryl proved herself to be ill informed and un prepared, her body language during the doctors responses spoke volumes as to how open her mind is. The fact that the McCaffery family received hate male from AVN members is disgusting. It was an interesting exercise and hopefully the outcome will be to expose the AVN as a conspiracy theorist group with no rational argument. Mike Munroe did an excellent job of putting Meryl in her place. Hopefully an education campaign will come out of this. Sadly I don’t think the AVN ( a deceptive name if I ever heard one ) will probably not vanish.

Oy, Louise, Sorry, first time blogging and didn’t see link at top. My mistake. However, I was at the debate. Sitting next to Maggie and what she mentioned was raised, but cut by the producers for the show. There was plenty of information not used..and that was a shame!
Join me for a beer! Don’t smoke.

To Ryan; like i said, check out the Medicare website for the proof of this ‘conspiracy theorist nonsense’. The money paid to GP’s comes from sales of the vaccine – so who’s paying who then???
http://www.medicare.gov.au/provider/incentives/gpii/index.jsp

To Joel; the ONLY reason i came here was because i was looking for somewhere to discuss tonight’s so-called debate and this website came up at the top of the search list. As a mother of 4, i will not ‘crawl back into’ any hole. 3 of my children have been fully vaccinated, so i am not just some crazed anti. However, one of my children was instantly damaged by the MMR vaccine and i know first-hand the horror, disbelief, hurt and mistrust, etc., etc., that comes from this. I feel sick with guilt for not researching the risks beforehand and can only pray that my daughter forgives my previous ignorance. I’ve been to many GP’s (for 56 vaccination shots between my kids!) and not one of them has ever informed me of the risks which, according to law, they are obliged to do. You really can’t seriously comment on something you have no personal experience with.

EVERYTHING has risks. You are naive if you think otherwise. Every single medicine a doctor pescribes comes with its own risk, but warning people every time could scare them in to not taking something that they are better off taking. Do you expect your supermarket to warn you if you about reaction risks pick up a pack of peanuts? Do you expect your waiter/chef to warn you of reaction risks if you order something with mushrooms in them? Do you expect your pilot to warn you every time you take a flight? EVERYTHING comes with risks. Some people react, the VAST majority don’t.

I don’t deny it was a horrifying experience, but your reaction here has been too extreme and has been strung along by these people who do more harm than good with their misinformation and lies about vaccines. It pains me every time I see someone who has been fooled and mislead as you have been.

Macca,

Interesting point. Louise’s child is still with us isn’t she. I asked my mother about the vaccinations that were provided to my sister and I and whether she knew the risk. She said she was well aware, that there were adverse reactions. Now this is anecdotal and we can dismiss it as such, but she is not a highly educated woman but she is intelligent. She weighed up the risks and took the less risky option.

Louise,

I have read the link to the medicare page and all I can see is the outline for an incentive program for businesses. Like it or not practices are businesses.

Can you link me to the money trail? Or explain what you find wrong with this scheme? Why do you think it compromises doctors?

Outline your argument clearly and concisely and we might take you a bit more seriously.

Sean,
Yes, my child is still alive but you make it sound like her ordeal (and mine) was trivial. Why is it that she would have to be dead to attract sympathy? Perhaps i should have filmed her as a baby at the Randwick Children’s Hospital (with an MMR vaccine-induced brain injury) while she was writhing and screaming in agony for THREE MONTHS!!!!! If vaccination ever becomes compulsory there’s nothing i won’t do to prevent that happening to her again.

Oh, and every year i read the government’s ‘Australian Immunisation Handbook’, which is available to all (not just GP’s) so i am up to date on all the stats and new vaccines. I’m not some ignoramus. How many of you, who seem so concerned about this issue, do that??? I’m quite saddened because i realise i’m just being used by some of you as a change from the monotony.

Even Maggie brags about the producer of the show being pro-science. The ‘professor’ was lying about there being no deaths from measles in the last 20 years but you people take his word as gospel. I just now copied this info from the government’s vaccination handbook:

In the 30 years (1976–2005) since measles vaccination was recommended in Australia, there have been 95 deaths recorded from measles, 1 death in 2004 being the only one recorded since 1995.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-measles

Louise,

My apologies if you interpret what I wrote to be minimizing her experience. It was not my intention. The risks for immunization are evident – the result of having low herd immunity is death for Dana. I was merely pointing out that you still have your daughter, unfortunate though her experience was.

Kindly refrain from trying to insert words in my mouth again and from accusing us of effectively using you as a toy for our amusement if you want to be taken seriously.

You have been inept in stating your case, which has resulted in misunderstanding.

Please take some time and write a long post articulating your case. I am pro choice as well. You have done nothing to convince me that the best choice in most cases is not to vaccinate.

Your reference to deaths from measles is an interesting point and bears further investigation.

I have nothing to do with the AVN and would never, have never, written to anyone who has lost a child and commented either way on it. I think it’s sick. I am equally offended that my child is being dismissed tonight as “just one baby”.
How many times do i have to repeat that i am not anti-vac? It’s frustrating.
I almost wish i hadn’t seen the show tonight and curse my mother (not literally) for telling me to switch on the telly because i might be interested in what was on 7. Guess i could blame myself for thinking they would have any viewing that wasn’t an insult to my intelligence. Go the ABC/SBS…….

I’m not going to dignify the trolling above – but I will say that it was an excellent debate and many thanks to R for getting it up on YouTube for everyone to see. I’ve collated a short list of links to here on my site – http://podblack.com/?p=1386

and hope that it helps bring more traffic to this account. Thank you to the (other wonder-twin) R, for posting David’s story.

I live in NZ, so have been following this online. I wish the media here would do something similar, as the anti-vaxers here seem just as irresponsible as the Aussie ones.
My father and father-in-law both got polio when they were young, and were not only crippled for their entire lives, they also suffered the complications and pain of post-polio syndrome later in life.
A friend of my grandmother’s had 3 siblings who died from whooping cough.
I think if anti-vaxxers grew up with someone who was crippled by polio, or deaf from rubella during pregnancy, or who had lost limbs due to meningitis, they would realise how foolish they are to use their children’s health as a statement of their own ignorance.
And I’ve often wondered – what happens to these kids if they want to travel overseas?

The problem generally Katie, is that one person has a bad experience with a vaccine and feel hard done by. They then go out and search for other people in similar situations who may be able to offer a support group.

Within this support group are JUST people who have had the negative affects, all they seen and hear are people who have had negative affects because face it, if everything went swimmingly for you when having loved ones vaccinated you wouldn’t exactly jump online and discuss it now would you?

Due to the group all being the minority who have had the negative emotions boil and it makes the situation look MUCH worse than it really is. They look around and all they see are the negative affects when if they look at the whole picture, if they look outside of their group, they would realise just how much of a minority they are, nowhere remotely close to the numbers affected by the diseases and viruses that vaccines are designed to stop.

In addition to all this, many support groups for vaccine reactions have also been infested with Supplementary, Complimentary and Alternative Medicine loons, people that push “remedies” which have no side affect purely because they don’t have any affect at all. Such things may have been good 500+ years ago when medicine was in its infancy and quite dangerous, but not today.

Every loss is a horrible thing, but the losses without vaccines would be a hundred times if not a thousand times greater. These anti-vaxxers do need to look at the real numbers and it will be clear that although they mean well, all they’re doing is pushing a situation which would be much MUCH worse and pandering to the S.C.A.M. loons is just adding to the damage they do. This is why we’re trying to stop them, to regain some sanity in this society.

Hi,
I am a student at Curtin University in Perth, and was watching the show on Sunday for my general interest, but found that the story was very relevent towards an undergraduate health science research project I am proposing. The audience overwelmingly agreed that there should be more information and access to education about child vaccination, which is a response that is I have been researching (despite the fact that so far it has been commented to me that researching child immunisation rates does not fit into the remit of Health Promotion…). I am wondering if people could send me comments for what they would like to be included/ what they think would work best to help set up a proposal for an child vaccination education scheme. Of particular interest would be who you think should be recieving the educational information; ie, health professionals being taught how to disseminate information; seminars aimed at high risk areas; pamphlets and schemes for day cares etc…
I dont know how blogs are meant to work, but if ideas and comments could be posted to me at katndmouse@hotmail.com, that would be appreciated.

Grendel,

Sorry to hear that you son has autism. I concur with your observation regarding financial stake/ vested interests.

In talking with a co-worker who is a fan of homeopathy, who raised the “Big Pharma” conspiracy I suggested that a better way to look at the situation was to view the companies that produce pharmaceuticals and homeopathic remedies as just that, companies with a vested interest in making money – then examine their actions, ethics, evidence and marketing and judge them on that.

I am pro-vaccination, and have had my 3 children vaccinated, including for HepB. I regard vaccination as one of the blessings of living in a modern age – like antibiotics, which have saved lives of loved ones.
My second child was hospitalised and made very ill by the triple antigen in 1993. He recovered with no long term problems AT ALL, but the pediatrician who treated him at the hospital recommended that my child did not have the whooping cough component in further vaccinations, as their reaction was so extreme. ( uncontrollable temperatures and fitting for four days)
My comment is that while vaccination is very valuable,in my experience there is a reluctance on the part of GPs to be explicit about the risks, which exist even if they are not on the same scale as the risks of the disease . I have been told since then by GP’s who were not present or even acquainted with my child at the time of his vaccination that ’something else must have caused it’ when I have tried to discuss any possible genetic vulnerability, and how to best prepare for any problems that may have occurred when vaccinating my third child. (as it happened, there were none.) My experience has been that there is a real reluctance to admit that any side effects exist at all. Even trivial observations (my comment that a slight rash appeared to have been caused by the vaccination) were treated with contempt, which I found unnecessary.
I wonder how many parents are made to feel stupid in this way, and have done research that ‘proves’ that doctors don’t know what they are talking about?
Surely Dr’s should want to know these reactions as part of an ongoing record of how vaccination CAN effect children?

@Tim,

Sadly I was advised today that Oprah has agreed to support a Jenny McCarthy talk show

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/05/04/oprah-drinks-the-antivax-kool-aid/

On my other post from David McCaffery, Dr Heather sensibly advised parents to “Get your questions answered, feel comfortable with the decisions you are making, but make sure you are basing it on real information, not ‘gut feelings’ or emotions”. With Jenny McCarthy’s “Mommy instinct” as the only evidence she has, I fear we are about to have misinformation foisted on the world, on a super huge scale.

Does anyone direct me to a website established in direct response to Generation Rescue? There are already some great ones out there

http://antiantivax.jottit.com/

but the post left by Ana last night made me realise parents want info. about adverse reactions etc up front since it seems some doctors are not conveying this effectively. Whilst this is likely not deliberate, it instils suspicion in parents who have already had their heads filled with the scaremongering from the AVN. One that amalgamates the stats, (eg., morbidity and mortality from vax and not vax – I know these figures are available on the CDC website, but perhaps if they were presented in a more palatable, less CDC scary fashion, they might be easier to digest for parents. (now that I have just typed this stream on consciousness, I wonder, isn’t this a job for the government?).

Maggie, the best some of us can do is write and/or comment to the best of our ability and, most importantly, to link properly to credible sources such as your page on anti-vax in Australia.

This means using carefully chosen link text such as “vaccination, whooping cough, toxins”, not “read this here”.

People linking to valuable information need to think about what the intended audience will be searching for. It might seem humurous to link to “dumb-arse anti-vaxxers” but it will do nothing to elevate the linked page in Google results when someone searches for “vaccination information” or “whooping cough vaccination”.

Linking to http://antiantivax.jottit.com/ is useful for people already reading your site but for random Googlers, it would be better to link to something like “The truth about vaccination” or even vaccination, MMR, mercury, toxins

The headings used for blog articles also matter. “Idiots!” is short and sweet but not nearly as useful to the campaign as “vaccination information for parents”. Sometimes boring is better when the issue matters.

It’s a pain in the rear to do it all the time but it will make a difference if everyone does it. I’ve taken to either inserting appropriate keywords into the article or listing links (to sites like yours) at the end with appropriate text.

We all did it with our sylvia browne link campaign and it worked like magic. The same needs to happen here to get science-based information on page one of Google results.

For me it’s about directing traffic to authoritative sites rather than attracting it to my own.

Louise wrote >
>The ‘professor’ was lying about there being no
>deaths from measles in the last 20 years but you
>people take his word as gospel.
Louise, the ” around Professor is a rude personal attack on someone just because you don’t believe what he was saying.
Cecily wrote>>
> Prof McIntyre got the bit about kids getting SSPE
>at 20 years of age wrong…..can be any age. I know
>lots 7, 8, 14, 16, 17,. My daughter got measles at
>10 and a half months of age – SSPE diagnosed at 7
>years & DIED at 12.
I think this is the answer to Louise’s comment.
I understood when P. McIntyre said it on the show … there have not been immediate deaths from Measles in 20 years, but there are and will be deaths from SSPE until we get rid of the bug … these are recorded as Measles deaths because they can be linked to the Measles infection. He explicitly said this on the show.
I do not want to see Polio come back … my wife’s Uncle had it and he wasn’t crippled like others, but it has affected him for the rest of his life …
Some people should not use some vaccines and if you know your child/family has had bad reactions, then it is probably OK not to vaccinate your children, but you must rely on most other children to be vaccinated … that is why you didn’t get Polio …

As Nihilodei says, everything has risks and you are always weighing up relative risks in all decisions made. In its simplest form, the vaccination situation can be dumbed down as follows:-

Not vaccinating has a risk of Bad Stuff Happening of, say, 1 in 1000.
Vaccinating has a risk of Bad Stuff Happening of, say, 1:100000.

I’ve made up the numbers, but really that’s what it’s all about. And when you put it like that, it’s obvious to vaccinate.

There will always be the 1:100000 (or whatever the number is) who have the bad reaction from vaccination, and if you’re one of the parents then you’ll feel responsible and question whether you made the right decision. But you did.

Dorey complains that Dr Cook was described as anti-vax against her will. Dr Giselle Cook was “similarly” described on Radio National in 1996!
.
“On the opposite side of the medical fence is a very small, but noisy, minority of doctors and health workers who actually do argue against vaccination, … One of those is Dr Giselle Cook”
.
Maybe I’m misinterpreting but I would think that arguing against vaccination would make you anti-vaccination. (The AVN also claims to be “pro-choice” yet carries no positive reports on vaccination and sells shirts saying “never inject”.)
.
If diseases respond to living conditions, not vaccines, how does one explain the return of preventable diseases in countries where conditions are probably superior to what they were when said diseases first began to decline? This even defies a simple correlation-causation defence.
.
Also in that discussion, Cook implies that the rise in meningococcal correlates with the, apparently vaccine-related, fall in HiB – “If you suppress an illness, another rises”. But, if vaccines are ineffective and diseases respond instead to living conditions, how is vaccination responsible for HiB reduction? It would surely be the case that improved living conditions caused a reduction in HiB and therefore, improved living conditions caused the rise in meningococcal.
.
Or am I getting the whole “correlation=causation” thing messed up?

@where are the facts, you may wish to direct your questions to Meryl Dorey, who telephoned the Dept of health to ask similar types of questions, following Dana’s death. Dana died as a result of contracting pertussis. To infer that there was another reason possibly related to other vaccinations she may or may not have received is irrelevant and offensive.

Also Maggie what the pro-choice would like is mandatory reporting from doctors on vaccine side effects. It may be more paper work, but at least it would be accurate, opposed to the 1 to 10 percent that are actually reported. So the information from CDC hardly seems correct.
If you think that the AVN is scaremongering, than it’s great to know you think the ingredients in the vaccines are completely safe when even doctors have said that there is no safe level of aluminium, mercury of formeldahyde to be ingested. I am also pleased to know that you think it is completely safe for a child to receive a dose higher than the adult dose, when the proportion in weight to size is so minimal (Sarcastic)!
Do you really think pro-choice people are so nieve as to not research the choice of whether to vaccinate their child or not? It is NOT something we take lightly, and we do continually research to make sure that what we are doing is the best for our children.

Maggie, these questions need to be asked, because these may be the reasons why her immune system was depleted enough for her to contract pertusis in the first place. Secondly why is it you say about the areas where vaccination is down but you have no data whatsoever that tells you whether the people in these areas with whooping cough are vaccinated or not. Secondly why is it when it wasnn’t an epidemic and fifteen years after having my injection for pertusis I still contracted the illness, when they are saying that it only wears off on the around 50 population. Where is the proof that any of these work at all. I am a person that was fully vaccinated, and from being a healthy baby prior to vaccines have gone to being sick all of the time due to a depleted immune system. I also contracted alot of the illnesses I was supposedly immune from due to vaccines. How do you explain people like me?
Also most people are told that a baby with a fever with uncontrollable screaming is just normal after an injection, when it is actually a side effect that should be recorded, and the parents should be asking the questions about whether it is safe to continue to vaccinate, as this was the case with my mother and still continues to be the case.

@ where are the facts:
.
Since you said there’s no safe level for ingesting formaldehyde, here’s a fact for you
.
Formaldehyde – a simple organic chemical made of hydrogen, oxygen and carbon — is a widespread and natural constituent of all living systems, from bacteria and fish to rodents and humans. In fact, formaldehyde is one of the most abundant organic compounds in the universe.
.
So, do you ever eat organic things – and I don’t mean “organically-grown” produce, I mean anything remotely derived from living organisms, like plants?
.
Apples, Apricots, Bananas, Beetroot, Cabbage, Carrots, Cauliflower, Cucumbers, Grapes, Onions, Pears, Plums, Potatoes, Spinach, Tomatoes, Water-melons… all contain SOME naturally-occurring formaldehyde.
.
Tell us how you manage to eat without breaching the “no safe level of formaldehyde” limit?
.
It’s easy to make a list of nasty-sounding chemicals like copper, chromium and manganese*, that have known ill-effects at unsafe levels – but is it honest to do so and then claim there is no safe level? (*Note – those three are dangerous and are also essential nutrients.)

Dr Carley, a court qualified expert in vaccine induced diseases, states that,”Mercury is 1000 times more toxic than lead, and is second only to uranium as the most toxic metal. If children receive all recommended vaccines, they’ll receive 2370 times the allowable limit – if there is such a thing as a safe amount of a toxic poison – in the first two years of life.”

@where are the facts, is this http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/carley.htm the same Dr Carley you refer to above?

Sorry for the munted chemical name, the weird Greek characters didn’t translate. It’s sucrose for anyone who cares.
.
Did Dr Carly really use the term “toxic poisons”? Who wouldn’t take him seriously after that?
.
And what is “a court qualified expert” anyway?

sorry Andy D, since you have used the term ‘nasty sounding chemicals’..I now have the strong urge to take you seriously….please continue with the diatribe. Out of interest what are you’re qualifications?

@Interested, a quick google search concentrating on results from websites that aren’t anti-vaxx and actually like to have a bit of dignity in regards to their medical studies and results will bring up the results for you if you care to take a look. I’ll paste a few quick URL’s for you that I stumbled across in less than a minute of searching.
.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733811885
http://www.who.int/whr/2005/chapter6/en/index1.html
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/dym142v1
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Rubella-us-1966-93-cdc.gif
.
There’s many many more studies out there all showing the same thing. They may not be double blind but without purposefully exposing people to pertussis etc it’s a tad hard to conduct a double blind study. The same goes with seatbelts.
.
Of course, if you constantly view anti-vaxx websites such as the AVN you’re never going to see this information, simply things which have already been debunked and proven wrong such as Andrew Wakefields paper and the works of “doctor” Carley mentioned above.
.
The reason why the issue with the AVN is due to the misinformation and outright lies that they spread, while pretending to be pro-choice and giving people accurate information to make informed decisions. They do precisely the opposite while also promoting S.C.A.M remedies. If it has evidence for it, if it’s supported by facts they’re against it. If it isn’t supported by evidence or is opposed to the facts, they push it. They’re doing a scare campaign that will only result in many more deaths than those they have already caused.

@Fuzztwin, upon doing a recent research project for university I found it extremely interesting that on pubmed all studies showing that vaccination was not good for you only listed the magazines to go reference, yet looking for articles that claim vaccinations are safe are all there to be read.
It’s all so funny how know it all guru’s like yourselves think that you can counterclaim everything the antivaccine do, but isn’t it the same for the people for vaccines. Also isn’t it a scientist job to try and prove things wrong.
If the AVN promotes scare tactics, than what do you think the big pharma also do? Are you lining up to get the swine flu injection that has now become available, as this epidemic was televised to be fatal, yet in Australia we have seen no deaths, and the general flu is actually having worse side effects than the swine flu. Or what about in the European countries this year, how is it possible that a company that manufactures immunizations could actually contaminate the flu vaccine with avian flu?
http://www.newsofinterest.tv/pharma/baxter_avian_2009_03_05.phphttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/04/23/mercury-poison.aspx
While your at it why not check out these references about gardasil.
1. Ho, G.Y., Bierman R., Beardsley, L., et. al., 1998. Natural
history of
cervicovaginal papillomavirus infection in young women, N Engl J
Med,
338:423-428.
2. Woodman, C.B., Collins, S., Winter, H., et. al., 2001. Natural
history
of cervical human papillomavirus infection in young women: a
longitudinal
cohort study, Lancet, 357:1831-1836.
3. Nasiell, K., Nasiell, M., Vaclavinkova, V., 1983. Behavior of
moderate
cervical dysplasia during long-term follow-up, Obstet Gynecol,
61:609-614.
4. Richart, R.M., Barron, B.A., 1969. A follow-up study of patients
with
cervical dysplasia, Am J Obstet Gynecol, 105:386-393.
5. Davey, D.D., et. al., 2004. Implementation and reporting rates:
2003
practices of participants in the College of American Pathologists
Interlaboratory Comparison Program in Cervicovaginal Cytology. Arch
Pathol
Lab Med., 128:1224-1229.
6. Manos, M.M., et. al., 1999. Identifying women with cervical
neoplasia:
using human papillomavirus DNA testing for equivocal Papanicolaou
results,
JAMA, 281:1605-1610.
7. ASCUS-LSIL Triage Study (ALTS) Group. 2003. Results of a
randomized
trial on the management of cytology interpretations of atypical
squamous
cells of undetermined significance. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 188:1383-
1392.
8. Adams, A., et. al., 2006. Negative colposcopic biopsy after
positive
Human Papillomavirus DNA testing: false positive HPV results or
false-negative histologic findings, Am J Clin Pathol. 2006;125
(3):413-418.
9. Merck & Co., Inc. 2006. Gardasil [Quadrivalent Human
Papillomavirus Types
6,11,16,18 Recombinant Vaccine] product insert. Table 6.
Like Interested says. there is tonnes of info available if your prepared to look. But it is obvious that you are as one sided as it gets.
As for you Andy D. I am able to pull references from more than the AVN, although it is useful, especially considering the articles recieved in the newsletters are fully referenced for me to continue searching! Also by choosing not to vaccinate does not mean that I enter into homeopathy either, so maybe your stereotyping is best kept to yourself. Also if you are so stupid as to not seek alternative therapies, well more fool you! The ocassional physio, chiropractor and accupunture (a proven practice around way before western medicine)visit to recieve optimum health as well as excercise and good eating should keep the most people healthy.
Therefore I bid you all Goodbye and wish you all the best in the Western Medicine intervention. I hope that in old age, all the antibiotics and other drugs you’ve been given over time will still work and that you are not immune as so many already are.

@where are the facts

Where is your sense of human decency? Your comments are the most hateful and hurtful words that any grieving parent could read.

As Dana’s parents, we are absolutely outraged that groups such as the AVN are intent on proving that Pertussis did not kill her and is not dangerous. We expected opposition to vaccination, but it is unacceptable and despicable that we have to ‘prove’ that Pertussis killed her. Haven’t we suffered enough – now we have to defend the very thing that killed her.

We are outraged that without our knowledge, Meryl Dorey rang the Director of the NCAHS Public Health Unit on 12 March seeking details on Dana’s death and contended the department had misled the public.

Even after I told Meryl what happened to Dana at the debate, a few weeks afterwards I found an AVN blog with members making false claims that stated they had information she was sick from birth, immune-compromised from the HiB vaccine or died as a result of the antibiotics or medical treatment she received.

Not only is no-one privy to this information, it is wrong and extremely distressing. In the latest Living Wisdom, Meryl got every fact wrong about Dana – her age, when she died, where she might have caught it, when the last death was and uses language to downplay the seriousness.

I am pleading with the AVN to leave my beautiful daughter alone and stop this misleading chatter. And I plead to other parents, please do not expose your child to this dangerous disease.

Don’t you think as Dana’s parents, watching every agonising moment of her death, we would know what killed her. We undertook extensive research and spoke with the specialists over several weeks to understand what happened.

Let me be very clear. She was born in perfect health, was breastfed and was putting on weight. Nothing is sacred. We decided to speak out after reading comments in media and blog sites that dismissed the severity of whooping cough, claims of ‘only one baby’, criticisms that we had not acted quickly and that I had not passed on immunity to Dana through breastfeeding.

Reading this blog is almost too much to bear!

Let me be very, very clear – Pertussis can and does kill 1 in 200 babies. Sadly, THREE babies have died in Australia this year – we are the only family to go public and I wouldn’t recommend it. If your baby is ‘the one’ – it is unstoppable.

The intensive care experts were in contact with experts all around the world and tried everything. I stood and watched them try to save her and did the unthinkable and wished she had cancer instead, because maybe then she would have had a chance.

Meryl might call what we have done a fear campaign. We call it a reality check. We only wished someone had warned us of the epidemic as we would have done everything in our power to protect Dana from catching it.

We saw the healthiest, most beautiful baby suffer the most agonising death – and there was nothing we could do.

We will not stand by and let this happen to another family.

Please STOP DEBATING our daughter’s death. Show some respect and leave Dana in peace. We are so sorry we have exposed our beautiful girl to such hurtful people.

Thank you Toni, Your steadfast position admist your grief is an amazing contribution to the parents of Australia who care enough about children, their own as well as the children of others, to vaccinate to save lives.

@ where are the facts – you didn’t read a single one of those papers did you? Do you even have access through the paywalls? I do. I think I’d like to see you summarize those papers and explain how a paper from 1983 discusses the effectiveness or dangers of Gardasil? For that matter, since Gardasil was released for general use only in 2006, perhaps you could explain the relevance of all of your citations to the vaccine that date prior to the vaccines release?

@ Where are the fact – I just found your reference list:

http://menopause.gaia.com/blog/2008/1/hpv_vaccine_alternative_view

So again – did you read any of these or just cut and paste the list?