[...] read the good news on the ABC that parents are being encouraged to vaccinate by only getting the government child bonus payment if they’ve had their vaccinations. The [...]

[...] Australian Gov: vaccinate or lose benefits. [...]

[...] Story, un programa de Al-Jazeera English emitido precisamente el jueves pasado. Empieza con una iniciativa del gobierno australiano para recompensar a los padres que cumplan con el calendario de v… y a partir de ahí monta un debate con Brian Deer, uno de los periodistas que estuvo investigando [...]

Great news! In my limited experience, governmental progress on health system changes like this is difficult to recognise and even more difficult to motivate, so by those standards this is quite exciting. I, too, was up early – to deal with complaints from pre-schoolers. No doubt those complaints will pale in comparison to the True Believer Tantrums expected from the anti-vaccine camp.

@tania, “Health minister Nicola Roxon should concentrate on her job..”
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This is her job.

Colour me sceptical. I cannot see that COs will be done away with (that would upset religious folk) but I can see cost-savings here for the government. If COs remain then all they’ve done is eliminated a payment.
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My first thoughts are detailed in the blog I wrote last night.

Lol @MrG. Very funny

“remain” and “I think”. Bugger.

Exactly Mr G!!!

@whateva, May want to check your facts, buddy…
Direct quote from PubMed Health(US National Library of Medicine)
“After you get chickenpox, the virus remains inactive (becomes dormant) in certain nerves in the body. Shingles occurs after the virus becomes active again in these nerves years later.”

I didnt take this money myself,and i dont think the vaccinating should accept it either.If parents do or don’t vaccinate it is their private decision.You can’t say it’s for the greater good of the herd when you can’t possibly predict who will get sick and who won’t.Kid’s are humans ,all as unique as a fingerprint,what one child might die from another will get through a ok.Immunised or not.An immunised child can get a child not immunised sick just as the opposite could happen.What might kill one adult won’t kill another.Either way is 2100 dollars going to stop children dying.Bet my last dollar it won’t.Take any financial rewards and give it to the red cross who need it.

Vaccinations work. If you are misinformed enough to believe you are harming your baby in any way by immunizing them, your asking the wrong people the wrong questions.
Like ANY medical treatment there are risks, albeit the most negligible.
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Introduction to Vaccination
Vaccines are administered to imitate infectious diseases, as surviving an infection will normally render the host immune to that same infection in the future [2]. By promoting long-term immunity to specific infectious diseases, vaccination is decidedly prophylactic; that is to say vaccines are designed to be a preventative tool against acute infectious disease [4]. Vaccination is widely considered to be the most cost-effective investment in public health, largely due to the resulting ‘herd immunity’ which provides even the most immunocompromised individuals with a decreased risk of contracting the communicable diseases we vaccinate against [6, 8].
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How Vaccination Works
Vaccination is by definition the administration of an antigen designed to innovate an immune response, creating an acquired immunity to that antigen’s corresponding pathogen [1]. Antigens put simply are substances that cause an immune response [1]. All infectious bacteria and viruses – collectively pathogens – have antigens on their surface [10]. These antigens are identified by their marker molecules – known as epitopes – which are unique to the pathogen they accompany [1].
When a vaccine is administered, the first immune cells it comes in contact with are the complement proteins [10]. If the active vaccine or adjuvants pose a significant threat, complement proteins are alerted to the site by the antigen surface of the vaccine, and trigger inflammation and attract macrophages [11]. The complement proteins then coat the target in opsonin; this will enhance the phagocytosis carried out by the macrophages. Once a macrophage has digested its target it will display the undigested epitopes superficially to stimulate the cytokines (messenger cells) in the lymph nodes [1]. From here specific T and B lymphocytes are introduced and activated – as if there was an actual infection present – resulting in the creation of Memory T and B cells [10, 11]. Once the immune system has neutralized the target cells initiated by the vaccine, the Memory T and B cells remain due to their comparatively long life span; these antigen specific cells have the ability to readily replicate with haste when the same infection returns – hence an acquired immunity has been formed [2, 7, 11].
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Types of Vaccination
Eradicated world wide by 1976 Smallpox was the target of the first widely used vaccine, discovered in the late 1700s by Edward Jenner [5]. Jenner coined the term vaccination after rubbing the pus of a Smallpox sore into a Cowpox lesion, ‘Vacc’ referring to ‘cow’ [10]. This form of vaccination is an example of the administration of a ‘live attenuated’ vaccine. There are two broad types of vaccines which are generally administered via injection into muscle tissue, although some can be administered orally/ventilated as a mucosal vaccine (via a mucus surface) [4, 7].
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Live attenuated vaccines are regarded as the most effective as they replicate in the host like an infection and thus induce a more potent response; by using a weakened version of the live pathogen the immune response is as if the host were infected and survived [6, 9, 12]. These vaccines are traditionally passaged – meaning the actual pathogen is grown extensively in a culture or animal host, until a balance is reached between inducing immunity and symptomatic effects [4]. However attenuated versions of disease can also be found in the environment and collected, or alternatively there have also been successful attempts at attenuating pathogens by genetic manipulation [4, 9].
Inactivated bacteria, ‘killed’ virus, toxoid, and subunit vaccines are chemically damaged pathogen or incomplete pathogen vaccines [4]. These vaccines rely on adjuvants – of which the mechanics are not currently known – to amplify their effectiveness, usually an Alum emulsion (suspended aluminum salts) which is thought to preserve antigens at the injection site releasing them slowly [5, 8, 12]. Because these vaccines do not behave in the same way as a live pathogen the immune response isn’t as powerful; they do not result in the creation of T-killer plasma cells or their memory cell counterparts which are vital for quick pathogen intervention in the future [2, 10, 11]. This is the reason these vaccinations require ‘booster’ shots regularly or in the event of potential exposure, particularly in infants whose immune response systems may not be able to recognize certain epitopes until fully developed [13].
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Examples of Vaccination Efficacy
There are currently twenty-four licensed vaccinations available and recommended by the World Health Organization, all of which currently target viral and bacterial acute infections [4, 5]. There is also a developing area of T-cell immunotherapeutic vaccination that could potentially control metastatic (inter-systemic transferring) disease like cancer [5]. A new vaccination program of note is that against Human Papllioma Virus (HPV), which in the trial stages showed to elicit an immune response of a much greater magnitude than if one were to contract and expel the live disease – this is thought to be the result of the combination of tri-stage dosage and adjuvants [8]. Whilst this example shows triumph in the control of a wild virus, the same cannot be said about the success of Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV) vaccines. It is thought that a mucosal vaccine would deliver better results against HIV because it originates in a mucus surface, and this type of vaccination can initiate broad immunity in both the active (systemic) and passive (mucosal) immune systems – however they also damage our passive commensal mucosal flora with their copious adjuvants [7].
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The Controversy Surrounding Vaccination
There are two major controversies involved with vaccination; lack of interest in developing vaccinations for Neglected Tropical Diseases (NTD) and anti-vaccination lobbyists. The first is the result of pharmaceutical companies developing vaccines based on political and social needs as dictated by the World Health Organization and local governments [5]. The latter is majorly propelled by the lack of information available on vaccines and the infamous Lancet publication linking Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccination with the neurological disorder Autism. An Australian group called the Australian Vaccination Network is the country’s largest anti-vaccination group, and returns the top result in Google for “vaccination” [3]. They claim that vaccination is untested, toxic, can cause cancer and AIDS, and is ineffective compared to children naturally contracting disease – defining the practice as being the sole cause of the rise in general ailment in children of the post-vaccination century [3].
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An Overview of Vaccination
Vaccination is a hugely complex and understudied area of immune control yet remains to be the most economically and physiologically effective method of inducing immunity in large populations, but acquired immunity can never wholly guarantee full protection against future infection [1, 6, 9]. Vaccination provides individuals with an effective and preventative way to stimulate their own immune systems to alleviate, suppress or exterminate specific diseases through an easily delivered antigen [1, 6]. By mimicking disease with antigens, vaccination can innovate memory cell responses that would otherwise rely on the host suffering all of the symptoms in order to gain immunity [2, 10].
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[1] The National Institute of Allergy and Disease – The Immune System http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/immunesystem/Pages/default.aspx (Last Accessed 1/10/11)
[2] Vaccines – How Vaccinations Work http://www.vaccines.gov/more_info/work/index.html (Last Accessed 1/10/11)
[3] The Australian Vaccination Network – Ten Reasons to Question Vaccination. http://www.avn.org.au/ (Last Accessed 29/09/11)
[4]Ada, Gordon (01/03/2005). “Overview of Vaccines and Vaccination”. Molecular biotechnology (1073-6085), 29 (3), p. 255.
[5] Douek, Daniel C (01/01/2011). “Vaccines”. Immunological reviews , 239 (1), p. 5.
[6] Schlumberger, Martin (03/01/2001). “Vaccines”. JAMA : the journal of the American Medical Association , 285 (1), p. 95.
[7]Cerutti, Andrea (29/10/2010). “Vaccination Strategies to Promote Mucosal Antibody Responses”. Immunity (Cambridge, Mass.) (1074-7613), 33 (4), p. 479.
[8]Almond, Jeffrey W (30/06/2007). “Vaccine renaissance.”. Nature reviews. Microbiology (1740-1526), 5 (7), p. 478.
[9]Melnick, J L L (1989). “Virus vaccines: principles and prospects.”. Bulletin of the World Health Organization (0042-9686), p. 105.
[10] Nobel Prize Organization – Immunity in detail http://www.nobelprize.org/educational/medicine/immuneresponses/overview/index.html (Last Accessed 1/10/11)
[11] The World Health Organization – Vaccine Immunology http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf (Last Accessed 1/10/11)
[12] Pulendran, Bali (01/06/2011). “Immunological mechanisms of vaccination”. Nature immunology , 12 (6), p. 509.
[13] Vaccine News Daily – Why Vaccines Need Booster Shots. http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/211089-researcher-studies-why-some-vaccines-may-require-a-booster (Last Accessed 3/10/11)

How does not vaccinating endanger the community? If vaccinations work, how could you get the disease from an unvaccinated person? Why do vaccines wear off as you age? How come improved sanitation is not listed as a cause of reduced infections, only vaccinations? In what natural state can you get measles, mumps, rubella and now chicken pox- all at once. Why would you give this infection cocktail to a baby with no immune system? There is lots of research about this topic, do some reading before jumping on the Vaccination bandwagon.

Hi Annoyed, there is no argument about vaccinations, except in the eyes of those who oppose them. Science has shown they work to prevent communicable disease. Period.

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There is also no argument that eating healthy and taking care of yourself is a good strategy. As is breast feeding if you can do it.

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There is no evidence that vaccinated kids get sicker than non-vaccinated. Apart from the latter get more infectious diseases (kinda obvious really).

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Finally, no-one is forcing you to get vaccinated. It remains voluntary in Australia. You will potentially miss out on 2100 bucks in support if you don’t is all. This is for the good of all, including those who can’t get vaccinated. For the sake of kids’ wellbeing as you say, it’s the best strategy we currently have.

Directly into the blood steam? Vaccines are not injected “directly into the blood stream”. Do some reading then come back and ask some intelligent questions.

Hi Elke, I’m sorry to hear if you have a child injured from vaccines. Aust does not currently have a no-fault programme for kids who are injured in and there should be. This is something the government should be looking into, particularly after the recent Fluvax debacle.
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I have done the research on the safety and efficacy of vaccines, and overwhelmingly, it comes down on the side of the benefits outweigh the risks.

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I would not take my car to a baker to get fixed, so I will look to scientists and immunologists for the information on vaccines.

Annoyed, I commented on kids who have been injured by vaccines in a previous comment. Please read my response to Elke.

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There has been a study looking a the health of vax vs unvaxed kids. You can find it here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110304091458.htm. I stand by my comment that kids who don’t get vaccinated will be more likely to get a vaccine preventable disease. This is not news.
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I don’t recall blaming the unvaccinated for passing on disease in this blog post. If you can tell me where I said that, then I will certainly address your issues.
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“The good of all” refers to herd immunity, which I presume you’ve heard about, thus those who are not able to be vaccinated are protected by others in the community who are. So, diseases are not passed to babies, immunocompromised people, those undergoing cancer therapy etc. There’s a great website that explains it here http://www.chainofprotection.org/

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I wrote a summary about vaccination if you are interested
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/. There are also links to resources you might find useful.

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I didnt take the money in the first place,but i dont think we should be handing this money out to people who vaccinate.We are losing 6 children a minute to famine,theres another 6 as i write this.They are part of this greater herd we speak of.6 children a minute(immunised or not) are not dying in this country from any disease.So why is this money not being diverted to the famine if we are all about the greater good of the herd.I have read so far the people who wont immunise say they dont want the 2100 but haven’t heard from one parent immunising getting this money say they will give it up for the herd.you cant have it both ways the herd or survival of the fittest but if we are taking the herd side that doesnt restrict to one wealthy country.perhaps the parents above can explain why in my circle of friends and family the child without immunisation has never had a disease(aside from a few 2 day mild flus or gastro that they caught off children who are immunised) while the children who have had immunisation have had chicken pox,whooping cough,foot and mouth disease,flus that go for 2 weeks (often accompanied by antibiotics).I only have my friends and family who can back me up as im not going to be studying science.Much like Roxon.But im not health minister.355 superbugs in hospitals from 88 last year,nurses striking for safer patient ratio’s and losing their jobs to less qualified workers with the threat of a one year jail term for striking,coverups of doctor Reeves who mutilated many women before being jailed for 2 measly years(ironically you can strike for safer work conditions and get one year less than a man who circumcised trusting women).Yet Roxon is doing her job @ Maggie..what a laugh…..

Mr G,
“Dan, injecting dangerous chemicals into the bloodstream of a new born child is whats endangering the community.”
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Certainly anyone who “injects dangerous chemicals” into anothers bloodstream deserves to go to jail, but that’s not what this is about. We are talking about life saving vaccinations not lethal injection.
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Your argument is a bit like:
Me: Organ donation saves lives.
You: But hacking people to death with meat cleavers is wrong.
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You can’t take two totally different scenarios and use one to argue the validity of the other; well you can but you look like a douchebag.

@Tania, as tragic as the deaths of kids from starvation is, I fail to see what this has to do with Nicola Roxon. Her job is the health minister of Australia, not a third world country.

refer to roxon’s job and why she is not doing it :355 superbugs in hospitals from 88 last year,nurses striking for safer patient ratio’s and losing their jobs to less qualified workers with the threat of a one year jail term for striking,coverups of doctor Reeves who mutilated many women before being jailed for 2 measly years(ironically you can strike for safer work conditions and get one year less than a man who circumcised trusting women).Yet Roxon is doing her job @ Maggie..what a laugh…..
refer to the greater good of the herd:We are losing 6 children a minute to famine,theres another 6 as i write this.who is in this herd,where does the herd start and stop.

Yeah, I was quietly nodding along with “related” until I got to the conspiracy in which almost every health worker in the world, excluding those in his/her own family of course, are out to kill us.
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Let’s all say it together – “The Illuminati Reptilian Overlords are our supreme leaders and we shall continue their work unabated until we are all dead”

.It is a disgust the government are paying people to vaccinate,being a means free incentive,wealthy people will just use it as pocket money..
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Tania, wealthy people will be unlikely to get the new allowance since it is the Family Tax Benefits Part A which is means-tested. Actually based on the claims of the anti-vax lobby, that includes a lot of them, as they constantly tell us that they are educated and in a higher socio-economic background. Perhaps that’s why the AVN are threatening to take the government to the high court over these changes.
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I’m not sure why you keep moving the goal posts on Nicola Roxon. Her job is health policy in Australia and that includes vaccination legislation thus this policy represents her doing her job. I did not mention anything to do with nurses jobs etc. This is irrelevant to this discussion as are your comments about children dying in famines.
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I also donate to the Red Cross because they have an extensive vaccination programme in the third world.
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You obviously didn’t read the link I posted because it is nothing to do with injuries and fatalities.

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I’m not sure what relevance your brother’s tours of duty have to this discussion?

no i only briefly looked at your link from germany Maggie,has no relevance to me.This isn’t a school class andy or maggie,so you dont get to tell me how to edit or type or think and you don’t seem to be having much trouble with my writing as you are responding.Nobody gets the right to tell me i should be fined,as they aren’t paying my way.
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If you can’t see how serving ones own and other’s countries has to do with the convo,you need to look at different branches of the tree,much like vaccination does.you need to ask the soldiers would they have had to bury so many people if our government would stop wasting on such things as paying out free money to parents who vaccinate and baby bonuses.Thats as simple as it gets a free handout.We needed the stimilus that was important,but people were caught spending it at the pokies and pub.I’d love to be a fly on the wall to see how the people who get the 2100 spend it.i know someone who will spend a lot of it on cigarettes,and with 4 kids theres 8,400.any money you have donated to the red cross for vaccination could have been avoided if we fed these people and gave them water,but i still can’t see you giving up your 2100 to the red cross on top of what you have already given,if you are entitle to it.my bad i read a newspaper article that said it wouldn’t be means tested to get the one hundred percent quota ,which won’t happen,there are at least 3 parents above who wont do the herd thing.It must be a kick in the teeth to be holding your child dying on your knee from hunger and thirst from a natural disaster and hearing oh in australia right now they are giving 2100 to parents to vaccinate.the 50m gilliard has sent to india to vaccinate would feed a lot of children in africa right now,children dying from no food no water,not no needles.priorities.world herd priorities not select entry.we cry epidemic,we aint seen epidemic.but no it is more important to edit people’s punctuation and being happy that the people who don’t immunise will miss out on 2100.We all pay to get through life and i know i really could have used this money,but i will not sell out.

Andy,if you cant read simple english without capital letters and commas then you probs wont understand a word i’m saying so just bypass me and carry on with your own buisness.My bad,i can understand really why my lack of grammar frustrates people.But i can also read other people’s lack of grammar with no troubles.Too easy.

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I will break it down for you.I do not trust Roxon as the health minister when she let so many woman down in the Reeves case.I do not support this free hand out of 2100 to parents who vaccinate, either now or in the past have i supported this payment.I will write my bad enlish to the last word for the rights of parents who will not immunise their children under the threat of financial punishment.The 2100 dollars being refused to parent’s who don’t vaccinate will not make a world of difference to the one hundred percent quota because we will not back down with or without 2100 dollars.We chose this path for a reason,with little support and no financial incentive.Don’t give me the herd line Maggie,it doesn’t cut it.
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Thanks for the links Maggie – a better link for the German study would have been the actual link to the study itself, a small article in a magazine tells you nothing about how the study was conducted which is very important. So for those who are interested, this is the link to the study (which I didn’t find very useful) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057555/.
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I didn’t make myself clear re observing unvaccinated children around me seemingly being healthier than vaccinated children around me. I didn’t mean as a direct result of being either vaccinated or unvaccinated, but that often (not always) parents of unvaccinated children also maintain healthy lifestyles for themselves and their children, eg. healthy diet, long term breastfeeding, lots of outside time, use of natural cleaners and other products, etc., which all help in building a healthy immune system. Of course there are also vaccinated children whose family follow healthy lifestyles too.
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Yes, I’m well aware of the idea of herd immunity (I extensively researched information both for and against immunisation before making a decision – the health and wellbeing of my children is extremely important to me). As there is so much information both ways (including people in the medical field who are against immunisation) – I came to the conclusion that when these diseases were prevalent, there were, naturally, people who survived it. Why? I’ld rather do everything I possibly can to build up my children’s immune system naturally, than have a vaccination injected into them which may or may not work for them and which may cause an adverse reaction.

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I also read your link re vaccination myths – nothing I haven’t heard before.
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I still wonder whether you actually have children of your own, considering your comment to Elke ‘the benefits outweigh the risks’ – not the greatest comment to make to someone whose child has been adversely affected. I for one am not prepared to put my children at possible risk to apparently serve the greater good of the community, I’ld rather do the best I can to take care of them myself.
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Your comment re smallpox being eradicated by vaccination – one of my sources of information tells me that smallpox vaccination ‘…remained as the only source of smallpox-related deaths for three decades after the disease had disappeared.’ (pg.232 How to Raise a Healthy Child…In Spite of Your Doctor, Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.)
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As much as I love science, it can’t explain everything all of the time, and although we know much about how the body works, there is also much to learn (as, of course, you would be well aware of in your field of work).

@Tania – thanks, at least that was readable (even if Maggie made it so?).
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My family has been a recipient of Family Tax Benefits (A & B) since their inception. We also received Parenting Payment for a short time. I am not a supporter of any of them since I don’t think all families should be treated as welfare cases and the payments act as a disincentive to work. I am also not a supporter of this latest change which ties the existing “standard” benefit to vaccination. On the surface it looks like “compulsion” but I actually think it’s just a cost-cutting measure (the ALP were never supporters of the FTB in the first place, as I recall).
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On the issue of famine, which Dave mentions, how is it relevant? Are you seriously suggesting we should focus on no other health issues while there’s famine in the world? Should we do away with emergency surgery – because it doesn’t fix famine? Should we forget about road safety measures – because they don’t fix famine? Should people be allowed to sell homeopathy or crystals for “healing” – while kids are dying of famine? I really don’t get your point. Maybe you should write a list of legitimate issues the government should concern itself while there’s famine in the world.
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As for Roxon not doing her job properly, I find it ironic that you point that out while admitting you can’t be bothered to even express your concerns in a coherent manner.

Andy,I will meet you half way on the old typer seem as you keep asking me questions but wondering why i bother answering at the same time which is no surprise i will answer in my bad english considering i was the first person to speak in the conv in my not unpredictable grammar.
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No Maggie cant have edited it unless she copied and pasted it personally for her own leasure,just as i can’t edit anyone else’s. If you cant read me bypass.wow.
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There are 2 issues that correlate this famine and vaccination in wealthy countries. The first, since we spoke 7000 children give or take have died from starvation/dehydration,a far far far greater sum than that of our children who die of any disease here. So enough of the hysteria of if you don’t vaccinate my child will get sick.
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The second being disease spreads. If people are worried about disease spreading and epidemic thats a lot of diseases spreading after the clean up and mass burials.
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To clear up the Roxon issue at no point have i said Roxon is responsible for this famine or it has anything to do with her portfolio. I would have to be a complete imbecile to even dream our good old Roxon could start a drought and then not only look after this countries health but to then go save children single handily. Name one politician the public are happy with the last ten years, say since the keating era. I have spoken about the shame of the Reeve’s case and let’s bring up the flu vaccination outcry.
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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/…/story-e6frg8h6-1226063484330
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Lastly i dont like the way you set your paragraphs but do you hear me whinging.

Dave, I’ll confess, I still don’t get the point Tania is making at all – so I’ll leave it at that.
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As for taking the welfare benefits – that’s what the government offered. I would have preferred lower taxes – I campaigned hard for them – but the government chose to go with welfare instead. To deny my family that support would have been a classic case of cutting off my nose to spite my face. No sense in that.

I am saying two simple points.
1.Roxon hasn’t a good track record at her job.Reeve’s and fluvax are 2 examples.
2.Take the 2100 off everybody or nobody.Feed some bloody hungry children with the surplus.
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We support family tax. It has been our saviour. The government didn’t make you take your payment’s that you don’t support. You chose to take them.

I will add that I most definitely don’t support changing the existing FTB supplements to make some of the payments directly linked to immunisation. So, if all you’re saying is that Roxon has handled this incompetently, I can’t disagree… famine or no famine.
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I don’t agree with your apparent principle of “take money off everyone or no one” except to the extent that the payment already exists for non-vaccine-related purposes and should remain so (or the government should be honest and announce this as a cost-cutting exercise). I have to accept the government’s right to create benefits with conditions attached. It’s basically how government works – otherwise everyone would get Family Tax Benefits – even if they don’t have kids.

Mr G, what vaccines are given directly into the bloodstream? How does that work? As far as I knew vaccines are injected into muscle or subcutaneously, if they are not inhaled or taken orally. You might want to do a bit more research before you pontificate on the subject.
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One thing you might do is compare the costs of treating diseases versus preventing them. Do you seriously think that hospital treatment for encephalitis and pneumonia for one out of a thousand cases of measles is preferable to getting the MMR vaccine? If you do, please provide some real data on that please. Perhaps something similar to this old, but still relevant paper: Benefits, Risks and Costs of Immunization for Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Or these more recent papers:
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Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
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An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
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Annoyed, I am curious what data you have that shows breastfeeding prevents diseases (just provide title, journal and dates, similar to the papers I posted above). My daughter was only getting breast milk when she came down with chicken pox as an infant. I know that is just an anecdote, but she was very sick with pox a bit too close to her eyes for my comfort. She also went from sleeping through the night to crying all day and night long with fitful naps.
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It didn’t help that at the same time her five year old brother was so sick from chicken pox he was wetting his bed every night.
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Which brings me to another notion from whateva: that children should continue to get chicken pox to protected adults from shingles. That is horribly cruel to make children suffer about two weeks with painful itchy pox all over their bodies (essentially open wounds that can become infected). Wouldn’t it be kinder to children for the adults to just get a shingles vaccine?
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I believe those who think children getting chicken pox is okay dokay have absolutely no clue about what they are talking about. I wish I did not have that month of very sick children (three kids, middle one first for two weeks, then other two for two weeks after he was almost better). And I must repeat, it is the ultimate cruelty to keep the vaccine away from children in order to theoretically prevent shingles in older people, especially when there is a shingles vaccine available.

One of your basic freedoms as a human being is your right to decide what you put into your own body.

Please think twice before subjecting your child to Vaccines.

Chris do you work for a Vaccine manufacturer?
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You can give us examples of children who have died from not being vaccinated, but im sure i too can give many examples of children who have died from taking a vaccine.
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The issue that parents are concerned about is the short and long term effects of vaccines. So Chris can you tell us the title, journal and date of the peer reviewed papers that detail the complete long term safety of vaccines.
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Are you saying that a vaccinated child will never die or become ill (ever) as a result of being vaccinated, from the vaccine or the infection.(title please?)
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Im sure that you can send me links for your case , and i can send you links for my case, but at the end of the day, as concerned parents who are we to believe.There is a tonne of information out there both for and against.As a parent it makes choosing very difficult.
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I admire parents on both sides.At the end of the day we only want the best health for our children.
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If a handful of people voiced their concerns to me about vaccines, then i probably would not take notice. However when there are many people all over the world raising concerns about this issue, then i take notice.
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Chris show me the proof, ill be happy to read it.

Ok, a few rules here. Calling someone a Big Pharma Shill without evidence means you will be laughed at and blocked. Get another angle. Try harder. In addition, punctuation is your friend!
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Ron W. since you claim to know so much, why do you ask for examples of kids who have died from VPDs? I presume you jest. But it’s not very funny. It’s called Google. GO THERE. #duh

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awww and tx Maggie for the edit, i didn’t know you could do it but it saved me some time. I am making an effort now.

Chris , there is some good information in those links.

Is anyone familiar with this site – http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/

Chris do you have any views on this web site.

There is nothing anarchist about not taking a payment that you do not support.
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I took our son to a health clinic when he was bitten by a horse. The doc said he will need a tetanus shot he has a 99 percent chance of getting it.
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I ,in doubt, knowing how rare it is in this country went to the hospital to get a second opinion. This doctor at the main hospital said it is rare in this country but if i wanted to he would do it. The nurse was pushing like her life depended on it.
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So we come to the decision we will take it as not only was the nurse pushing, i was originally told by the first doc he would def get lockjaw without it. But we will have only the Tet Tox not the combo.
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The nurse by this time is getting antsy and decides to ring child protection to see if she can legally enforce the combo. (we heard her whole convo)(btw child services tell her i have this right and there is nothing she can do). The doctor says that is fine he is happy for that. This nurse does not know our sons prior history nor any allergies, nor does sha ask.
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The doctor tells the nurse to bring in the plain Tet-Tox so she sulks off, and comes back with the shot. She passes it to the doctor and just as he was about to jab it in ,I hear Dave ,my better half, call out stop.
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The doctor stops, Dave points out the label on the side of the needle. It is the combo we said specifically at least ten times we weren’t going to use. The doctor cracks big time at the nurse and said you were ordered to bring the tet-tox only. The nurse said it’s not in stock, the combo was the only available.
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No my son didn’t get the shot. No he didn’t get lockjaw. No the doctor didn’t panic. No we didn’t panic. Yes the nurse did.

Im not for or against but when you read an article like this, you have to wonder, are we doing the right thing by vaccinating?

I hope those who are pro take the time to read this and other articles like it.

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/11/17/smoke-mirrors-and-the-disappearance-of-polio/

Thanks Jo good link

Hope the luck lasts for us too Chris. All children are different. Luck, genetics, chance. OUt of a group of 5 families from kinder to high school my child avoided chicken pox,meningococcal,foot and mouth disease,croup,pneumonia,juvenile arthritis amongst this group,which unfortunately the other 4 fams didn’t and we have avoided side effects although i can only say of one of the mum’s speaking of side effects (never spoke of it with the other’s). Our boy had a case of appendicitis however which the other 4 fams didn’t. No children in the group are terminally ill or have an auto immune issue although the juvenile arthritis is bad and the meningococcal was very close.

We have had it easy in comparison. But im not here to change people’s minds. It’s just good to speak with and listen to diverse parents with diverse experiences.

I wouldn’t call it gambling. There was no luck. It was a much higher chance of not getting tetanus than getting it. I wish gambling had those odds ,i would be rich. Anyone can say life is a gamble but it is life.
It is someone else you were asking for the evidence of the DTaP and Tdap being more dangerous than diptheria not me. Think the convo got a bit mashed up.

Can we also assume, tania, that you have never had a tetanus booster? You really need to tell us what scientific evidence you used to arrive at the decision that not getting a Td or Tdap booster was a good idea. Then you would have to share that it with every public health department and gardening club around (as a gardener, I am always reminded to keep up with my tetanus boosters). But it has to be good science, not something from a dodgy website or a researcher whose medical license has come under official scrutiny.

I don’t need to tell you anything actually Chris, scientific or not. My buisness is my own, nor do i need to justify myself, that is why i have the law on my side in this whole issue. Kenny, theres a lot of fatal out there, tetanus of which we do not read about everyday in the news.
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I haven’t even spoke about why we will not allow a combo vax, nor will i here. I was making a simple point of a nurse trying to sneak a combo when the doctor and parent’s both said no. That is really bad to tell someone you are giving them one injection when you are knowingly giving them another, while not knowing that child’s medical history. That is dangerous.
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Remind’s me of the health clinic the other day where i seen a little boy with poo all over the back of his pants, and overheard the mum say to her friend with 2 kids he has gastro (must have been going in for a group jab). Prob’s not the best time to immunise the kid but some will do it no questions asked. Now if i have a friends child with gastro, “luck” tells me to stay away. Not go for a group jab. Something tells me a couple of feral mum’s havent looked at any info on immunising, whether it be pro,anti,allergic,high risk ,low risk. That’s what i call luck.

So you don’t have any science. You have just decided you are smarter than anyone else. Except you are not, and are just taking a free ride on what is left of herd immunity and bragging about it. Someday your luck will run out, especially since there is no herd immunity for tetanus.

Chris,no need to pull me up on the tet-tox, of course i know there is no tet-tox now,there was then,before the internet existed. That is common knowledge in my family. How do you know what websites i use when i have only left one link for the australian newspaper, which was more about Roxon and the flufax episode.
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Stop putting words into my mouth. I haven’t even mentioned side effects from vax aside to say i was sorry to hear Elke had a problem and a friend’s son who died the night of a vax that was put down to cot death. So i am not making up any claims on the relative safety of vaccines versus diseases as you say. Nor posting dodgy links.
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You are like the nurse, jumping in with no medical history of a child ,demanding and presuming. But you are worse because you are making up so called dodgy links and websites i have supposedly been visiting. Our convo on the blog is over until you can stop lying.

You also need to apologise for saying i have decided i am smarter than anyone else. You have no evidence i feel this way. You just made that up.
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The only thing dodgy about my link was the flu vax , not the article.

As you will read i went against the nurse but not the doctor. The nurse was the one who went against the doctor and myself.

I didn’t make any claim about the vaccine being more dangerous than tetanus.

I was pointing out how one doctor said a child had a 99 percent chance of getting tetanus (99 percent ? Even you would know this isn’t the case) and a nurse tried to slip a vaccination that wasn’t what she said it was, against another doctors and parent’s order.
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The rest is frankly none of your buisness.

Chris, see there you are at it again with your presumption stretching the truth to suit yourself.
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You were demanding links “for the 4th time” but you had me mixed up with other writers,you were telling this public blog thing’s i havent even said. Now you are accusing me of denying my child protection from tetanus for no reason.
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Yes i do have my reason of which im not going to share with you, not only have i told you it’s none of your buisness ,but i dont like the way you twist people’s words to make them sound like they made an uneducated and unfounded decision from dodgy web sites only. Our convo over. Until you can grow up please talk to other’s only.

Which ingredients are neurotoxic? Thanks in advance.

Hi Braden,
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In Australia it’s called thimerosol. The latter is a mercury containing compound which constitutes 49% ethyl mercury, which is the form of mercury that does not accumulate in the body. There are several types of mercury, methy- and ethyl-. The former is the environmental toxin that accumulates in fish and seafood and can cause neurological problems. Ethyl mercury does not accumulate in adipose tissue (fat stores) so it is not a problem.
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You are aware that all thimerosal was taken out of childhood vaccines in 2000 yes? There remains one hepB vax that has less than 2 micrograms of thimerosal in it. And you can choose not to have it. Also there is no evidence that thimerosal ever caused any problems. The reason it was removed from vaccines was due purely to perception of harm

Thanks Maggie,
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There are many sites which make many claims about mercury.
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Can you tell me who manufactures vaccines in Australia, and where can i get a list of all the ingrediant’s used. Is this list available.
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Thanks.

Chris, i said the reason was none of your buisness. You jump in with words like gamble and no good reason. How would you know the reason was not good, unless you have super powers to read people’s medical histories and minds.
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During 2001–2002, there was one
death from tetanus, in a person aged
over 60 years (health.gov.au).

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That’s not really a gamble is it now. No children have died from tetanus between these years, and so forth up to now.
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Seems the poor poor parent’s who used the fluvax in W.A ,before it too was banned for children under 5 (so a 6 year old can take it safer??), took a gamble times 300 to my “gamble”.
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Stop making things up, i have said i have a good reason. Because it is none of your buisness does not mean no good reason.

During 2001–2002, there was one death from tetanus, in a person aged over 60 years (health.gov.au). That’s not really a gamble is it now.”
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Okay Tania, but do you know how many CASES there were (it’s not always about deaths)? Do you know the vaccination rate in Australia? If almost everyone is vaccinated for tetanus, then would you really expect to see thousands of infections?
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Not vaccinating because of low incidence of infection is like cutting the strings off your parachute because all the people who parachuted before you survived.
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Also, consider these stats… [I've bolded a bit for you]
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In Australia, tetanus is rare, occurring primarily in older adults who have never been vaccinated or were vaccinated in the remote past. There were 18 notified cases of tetanus during 2001–2005, but 120 hospitalisations (July 2000–June 2005) where tetanus was the principal diagnosis.4,5 This discrepancy suggests under-notification. During 2001–2005, there were 2 deaths from tetanus.4,5 The case-fatality rate in Australia is about 3%. Neonatal tetanus is a frequent cause of infant mortality in parts of Asia, Africa and Latin America. Effective protection against tetanus can be provided only by active immunisation…
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I didn’t know about the 3% death rate. That’s high. Three in every 100 infections will be fatal. That’s not really a gamble is it now?
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Of course, to know if it’s actually a gamble, or not, you’d need to refer to Chris’s questions about evidence of harm from vaccinating.

Chris, are you taking population into account. That was an american link, and there were no deaths.wow, 15 cases in a population of 300 million people.
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From 1992 through 2000, 15 cases of tetanus in children less than 15 years of age were reported from 11 states. Twelve cases were in boys. Two cases were in neonates less than 10 days of age; the other 13 cases were in children who ranged in age from 3 to 14 years. The median length of hospitalization was 28 days; 8 children required mechanical ventilation. There were no deaths. Twelve (80%) children were unprotected because of lack of vaccination, including 1 neonate whose mother was not vaccinated. Among all unvaccinated cases, objection to vaccination, either religious or philosophic, was the reported reason for choosing not to vaccinate.. “We have not verified the content of this report” at the very bottom. (my reason is not philosophical).
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3 in one hundred cases might be fatal? Might?. Don’t know where you got you stats as they differ from the au gov stat’s Andy.

Chris not that i need to justify to you, im going to say no i didn’t keep up any tet shots with the blessing of a doctor and nurse (who don’t know each other) who know our medical records from birth on.
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15 in hospital with tetanus is sad, that is not ok with me. But neither is the 600,000 reported road crashes;
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200,000 reported injuries as a result of road crashes;
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22,000 serious as a result of road crashes requiring long term care and treatment; and
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1,600 people killed in road crashes in australia per year. Should i not put my child in a car .This is a much higher risk of hospitalisation.
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I also feel for the 3500 who die from sids each year. Do we not have children?

About 25,000 people die every day of hunger or hunger-related causes, according to the United Nations.
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This isn’t a 15 in 300 million risk. This isn’t a one person in 6 years risk. This isn’t a disease. So who is taking responsibility for this “risk, gamble”. I can’t even call it a risk or gamble. Who do we need to interrogate about the deaths of 25,000 people dying from hunger today. Not might,or may,but will. They are/were part of the herd.
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I have said at least 2 times i have a good reason to not jab and this is between my doctor ,my partner, my extended family and myself. Not you Chris.
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From your link,Vaccines may help prevent sids. MAY. This association may be casual . There is a lot of might’s ,may’s, casuals in this study you show.

You are changing the subject. Unlike you I have supplied actual studies, and you seem to be fixated on the word “may.” That is what is used in risk and probability, something that seems to elude you. You are claiming that the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of tetanus. Yet, you cannot go by what has happened in a group of mostly vaccinated persons, when you and your family have not been protected from tetanus, a bacteria that exists in soil. The risk of tetanus many be small, but it exists and as you spend more years unprotected that probability of getting tetanus increases.
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Again, what is your evidence that getting a vaccine is dangerous? Your choice is to either answer that question or stop commenting. Do not try any more diversion tactics.

“Where have i claimed the risk of the tetanus vax is greater than the risk of tetanus.”
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By denying your child protection when he was injured. What evidence do you have that the vaccine offered was more dangerous than the real risk of tetanus?

In the future when you brag about a medical decision that actually puts a child at risk be prepared to defend it real science, and actually list the data that support those “pros and cons”. Because it still looks like you chose to not protect your child from tetanus due to what vaccine was available.

Hi Dave,

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Where is you evidence that states any vaccine is 100 percent safe. Where is your evidence that say’s every single person can be vaccinated safely. Where is your evidence that immunised children can’t catch disease.
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No one has said this, because it’s not true. No vaccine is 100% safe (or effective for that matter), not everyone can be safely vaccinated and immunised kids can still catch the disease.

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But vaccines will reduce the severity of the disease and the morbidity and mortality. No vaccine is 100% safe but the benefits outweigh the risks. The complications from a bout of pertussis are far worse than the side effects from the vaccine. One in every 200 unvaccinated kids who catch it will die. And a vaccine is not a force field – it won’t stop bacteria or viruses getting into your body but it prepares your body to fight them faster, so they don’t get so much of a hold = less disease severity.
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Hey Dr Rachie – did you find this link http://www.abc.net.au/contact/upheld/s2739849.htm?

Saw you ask on Twitter but I don’t tweet.

Dave, what evidence do you have that the various forms of tetanus vaccine are more dangerous than the actual disease? Just post the title, journal and date of the scientific paper that shows a child is at greater risk by getting a vaccine than actually getting tetanus. Thank you.
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Please do not presume what I think. I go by the data. While vaccines are neither 100% safe nor effective, the actual diseases are worse. Tetanus is a nasty disease, so you really need to show me how the vaccine is worse.
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(oh, and her little anecdote was a brag, there is no other way to describe it, because it was definitely not data nor evidence)

Well said Dave.

Ty Gary….Chris your missing the point again. Tania nor I are claiming the vaccine for tetanus is more dangerous than tetanus FOR THE LAST TIME. BOTH ARE BAD BUT TETANUS IS RARE. Do you or anyone on this page actually know or have met anyone who has had tetanus.

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The decline in deaths from infectious diseases has been attributed to a range of social and demographic changes, public health measures and medical advances. Australia bureau of statistics.

. Percentage of children 60-<63 months of age (age calculated at 30 June 2011) vaccinated against tetanus is recorded at 89.8 percent australia wide(medicare,bureau of stats and gov,au).

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Recent surveys of school children
have generally found histories of incomplete immunization in groups
varying from 26% to 60%. sa.gov.au

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For subjects aged 50 years and over, less than 60% were immune or partially immune to diphtheria and less than 75% to tetanus. s.a gov.au

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In 1995 the Australian Bureau of Statistics released a report showing that only 53 per cent of children aged between 3 months and 6 years were fully immunised against a range of potentially fatal diseases. This rate was one of the lowest in the developed world.

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I ,nor ,Dave are going to send you scientific evidence that the tetanus vaccination is worse than the tetanus, because we have never claimed or stated this as you keep saying. Quote where we have stated this or claimed this please.

You show me a case where an unvaccinated child has died of tetanus Chris. Then after that i would like to ask why the remaining 10.2 children of 89.8 vaccinated (Australian bureau of stats,unless they “also” have made them up or didn’t understand them) also didn’t die of tetanus. Not one. You can send me back studies of how many were hospitalised, but they must state how many were vaccinated and how many weren’t.

Wow! Still going?!?
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Tania, if I understand correctly, you’re saying your child has a specific medical reason for evading vax? If so, then I’m not sure what your issue is since clearly the government is not going to force you to go against doctors’ orders and no pro-vaxxer is going to insist you do so either if you make that clear (without couching your defence in terms that read like a conspiracy or pointing at other risks and shouting “look, that’s much worse!”).

Doctors support and orders are two very different things.
Some people will not vaccinate, get used to it.
It has always been there, and is not going to go away.
When you accuse people of risking and gambling with their children’s lives you will get sent a list back of real risk and gamble.

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Tetanus is so rare,even hospital casualties are rare. I can find the stat’s on how many roughly get hospitalised but doesnt say if were vaccinated or not. Shouldn’t be too hard to tell us, considering how rare.

The studies you left above do not show who was vaxxed and who wasn’t in Australia. Some statements being said above are misleading. Here are some misleading statement’s im reading that the studies do not even say.
For eg: vax can prevent sids (noone knows in reality what causes or prevents sids). 1 in 200 unvaccinated babies will die of pertussis. (It actually said 1 in 200 babies will die). Vax was the reason why disease in this country was eradicated. Stat’s are being shown from countries with extreme poverty.

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It is not your job to explain anything to me ,that is about the only thing we will agree on. So stop trying to explain, i’m happy with my choices. Part of the vax problem is yes people will disregard personal exp and that is a shame because vax is a personal exp. Will we also disregard the small studies of school’s and childcare centre’s? Yes we will, because what would small groups of people reveal. Even those who were injured by vaccine or disease are from small groups of personal exp.

.At my age if i was going to study science or statistic’s i would have my now. That is why i will leave it to the expert’s to help me make my choices and not you. Do you suggest the many more who are vaxxed with no question’s asked and parent’s who aren’t informed and do it blindly also need to go study science? Consent without knowledge isn’t a real consent. Think the seedy doctor and nurse who originally told me my son had a 99 percent chance of getting tetanus prob’s need to go back and study science or medicine considering it is their field and they can’t even get that simple thing right.

From: http://www.fahcsia.gov.au/sa/families/payments/Pages/strengtheningimmunisation_faqs.aspx

Guess what under the new system IMMU-12 still exists

What exemptions will be available for the new immunisation conditions linked to the Family Tax Benefit Part A supplement?

While the Government considers that immunisation is an important health measure for children and families, existing exemptions will continue to be available.

A child may have a temporary or permanent exemption if a recognised immunisation provider determines that receiving the vaccine is medically contraindicated. A child may also receive an exemption from the immunisation requirements if a recognised immunisation provider indicates that the parent has a conscientious objection to immunising their child.

These exemptions will also continue for Child Care Benefit.

and if your kids is vaccinated then im not sure why so much worry from the parents of those kids, wont an unvaccinated child only infect another NON VACINATED child.
and im sure an unvaccinated child can still develop a strong immune system.
i think parents are becoming too lazy why dont you just have the kid, get a photo and then donate it to science to “look” after it.

Let’s face it: the only real justification for using vaccines to “immunize” ourselves against disease is derived from the natural fact that when challenged by infectious agents the humoral arm of our immune system launches a successful response capable of conferring lasting immunity. Were it not for the elegance, proficiency, and mostly asymptomatic success of our recombinatorial immune system in dealing so well with infectious challenges, vaccination would have no cause, no scientific explanation, no justification whatsoever.