[...] now new reports are coming in that suggest Dorey and the AVN are still in dire straits. Allegedly, parenting magazines, home of their primary demographic, are refusing to publish AVN advertisements. Now the intended ad would have cost $8000, which Dorey was all ready to pay, which raises an [...]

[...] by publishers is something the AVN are also familiar with. Remember when Sydney’s Child also rejected an ad from them back in [...]

I keep wondering when the supporters of the AVN will start asking exactly what Meryl and co are doing with their money.

Anyway, this was a terrific move by The Child. They deserve to be congratulated.

I am unable to reveal the source – sorry!

What a fantastic move, more lives saved by this decision!!

Thanks Maggie, I understand sometimes you can’t reveal the source.

I just sent the editors an email thanking them for their decision to reject the ad, and told them I’d seek out their publication in the future.

FYI, I saw Dorey commenting here:
http://www.virology.ws/2010/04/02/do-you-want-to-know-what-is-in-your-vaccines

You poor ignorant people, perhaps one day when the true dangers of vaccines are as widely publicised as their advantages, you will eat your words. I pray you never have to watch your own child or any child you love suffer irreparable damage or death from a vaccine for you to see both sides of this argument.

“when the true dangers of vaccines are as widely publicised as their advantages”

So you admit that there are advantages? Well, that’s a nice first step.

Of course there are advantages, that’s pretty obvious isn’t it. It’s only when you research this subject as extensively as I have that you start to really see that there are two sides to the story. I think it’s important to understand both sides as thoroughly as humanly possible before making a decision as important as vaccinating your children … or not … I never questioned it (both my parents are nurses and pro-vaccination) until my own experience forced me to look deeper into the topic. I spent months and months reading and researching and talking to parents and doctors and naturopaths etc etc before coming to the decision not to vaccinate. There are a lot more people out there who have vaccine damaged children than people realise. I now go to great lengths to build my child’s immunity in natural ways and I sincerely believe I have every right to make that choice. I wish you all great health and vitality whatever your personal choice may be

Save a baby you say???? how the F–k would you know??? Vaccines nearly killed my little boy at 4 months(doctor who vaccinated my son addmitted it) and they did kill my friends little boy at 18 months(altopsy results)Of course they are sorry as I learn later its apparently call acceptable risk by the medical profession. They know vaccines keep us all unwell at some point in our lives and it kills a few and it keeps some unconscious??? may be you?? If you have the time to write all this crap that you know very little about??May be you need to go into doc’s office and have all the said vaccines required for small babies? oh and make sure you read enclosed sheet in vaccine package before it’s given to you, then watch that they inject you with the whole amount of the vaccines? It will be interesting to hear of the outcome??

Have emailed Marion with a simple ”Thank you“.
MD is having a hissy fit and trying to mobilise her mob to complain: http://avn.org.au/nocompulsoryvaccination/

When I have a bit of time, I’ll post my letter of thanks on my blog. This should get wider attention from the public, thanks Maggie!!

This is the most disgusting and hate-filled group of people ive stumbled across on the web – seriously are you for real? – its all cash for comments tho isnt it? – or are you all useful idoits? HAHA yeah i wonder, anyway when people in your family start to get sick, dont worry at all – your hate will fill you with all thats needed to see you thru – oh thats right you have all you need in ‘science’ dont you! hahahahaha ENJOY!

how dare you presume that those of us AVN supporters are all ‘antivaccination’ ‘antiscience’ child abusers. I cannot believe the level of personal attack and mirth that has been levelled at Meryl Dorey and the AVN by the Skeptics. I have a science degree, have 3 children who are all vaccinated and yet I support fully the aims of the AVN in attempting to bring another angle to the vaccination debate in Australia. I worry about the level of patronising ‘scientific’ mudslinging in the above blog. Get off your high horse skeptics, we see through it. It certainly hasn’t earnt my respect.

Jess, I no more believe that you have a ‘science degree’ than I believe I am the first dog on the moon. This is called an argument from authority, which is meant to make the reader believe something without proof. It’s otherwise known as random bullshit on the internet.
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If you indeed DO have a degree in any science, you’d realise that there IS no debate and indeed only one ‘angle’ to vaccination. You vaccinate your kids- or you’re a child abuser- plain and simple.
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Am I looking for your respect? No. I could not possibly care less what you think of me. I simply hope your children are fortunate enough grow up without a reason to hate you to your grave. If you don’t vaccinate, you’re playing the odds with their health, nothing more, nothing less.

@youdogs, yes we are for real, and no we don’t get paid (I wish). Who do you suppose would be paying us out of interest? I’m not sure what you mean by “useful idoits”? I am happy to rely on science-based medicine when I am sick, that is absolutely true! Cheers.

“You live with your head in the science sky, weez.”

Is that supposed to be an insult?

Wow! I feel like I need to get out the popcorn for these fireworks!

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Fabulous to see AVN members here. Welcome to the humble abode of the skeptics.
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Now just to dispel a few misapprehensions the (metaphorical) furniture we have around the place is care of Dairy Farmer’s milk crates. Pfizer, Roche et al most probably have no idea of our existence, therefore they don’t think of us as employees or even charity cases. This accounts for no Chesterfield (?) lounge suites, mahogany tables or caviar on our plates.
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For bullet point no 2: science is about testing, good solid testing where you are really *really* looking at what’s there. Notice to AVN folk: there’s no science backing up the AVN’s position. There’s a plethora of science backing up vaccines.
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Point 3: “Big Pharma” doesn’t exist. I know it’s hard to believe, but that scale of collusion and conspiracy requires that every employee in pharmaceutical companies, and every single scientist to be a homicidal psychopathic sadistic mass-murderer.
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And lucky last, point IV: Vaccines work! I know this is also hard to believe, but since anecdotal evidence is like sweet ambrosia to the scientifically illiterate, you only have to ask someone who’d been around before the polio vaccine cam around and virtually annihilated it. Oh, and surfing the net, reading AVN’s posts, and reading poorly written and conducted science does not make you informed.
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Apart from all that, welcome!
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Ilijas.

I wouldn’t go so far as to call it child abuse, but indeed, children of parents who don’t vaccinate their children are literally playing the odds with their children’s lives.
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There’s a reason common childhood diseases like polio, rubella, mumps, etc… don’t make as many victims any more as they used to, and that reason can clearly be traced back to vaccination.
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The needless risk today is not the vaccines.
The chances of something going horribly wrong because of the vaccine far outweigh the chances of something going horribly wrong when your child actually contracts the disease.
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Unless you would enjoy watching your child suffer through a potentially lethal disease just for the hell of it.

Special thanks to Big Pharma… oh crap
That’s one tin I shouldn’t have opened.

All i see from your Skeptics book here is well documented harassment of an individual and is really nothing to do with science or justice – more to do with acting as a misguided hate group of vigalantes. Stop your terrorising and of people such as Meryl and try a little compassion and respect for others.

Again, I’m yet to see any cases of these supposed ‘deaths’ you keep attributing to not vaccinating…

I certainly wont live in a cave. I’ll live in my lovely big house with my eco friendly furnishings and my lung-friendly paints eat my organic wholefoods and play with my lovely healthy unvaccinated son while the rest of you pro-vaxxers sit in science-based hospitals with your tubes and baggies attached to your bum collecting your poop.

Wow – DAN BUZZARD, you are a modern version of the Nazi Brownshirts – were you bullied at school dude? Hey everyone – you want to see what Dan really thinks about silencing dissent? – What a TOTAL hypocrite! You want free speech for yourself but not others hey? haha – what a fake! http://www.archive.dbcde.gov.au/2009/july/future_directions_blog/topics/digital_economy_benefit/dan_buzzard

Maybe all the anti AVN hate mob would explain why Jock Doubleday of Natural Man Natural Woman in the USA, has NOT HAD ANY TAKERS for his now US$255,000 offer for any CEO of vaccine manufacturing companies worldwide, or any USA MD who administers vaccines, to publicly drink a body weight adjusted mixture of vaccine adjuvants & collect the cash. I would have thought his phone would be ringing off its cradle & his door would be knocked down in the rush, what a great opportunity to show all people how safe vaccines are! When I last contacted him a few years ago there had only been 1 doctor in the mid west who enquired, but did not go ahead – strange!.

Go to http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/VaccineOffer.htm

I love it when they bleat about free speech (in a privately-owned magazine no less) all the while ignoring the blatant revisionist crap and banfests that go on in Meryl’s own back garden.
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The AVN’s email list is aggressively culled of dissent, the Facebook page is locked down to the point where you need to beg for admission, and their very own magazine has a restrictive advertising policy. I’m willing to lay odds the AVN would turn down any ad submitted by, say, Australian Skeptics.
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Yet they have one ad turned down and all of a sudden they’re an oppressed mass?
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The smell of hypocrisy is rank with this one.

scep dick said: “Again, I’m yet to see any cases of these supposed ‘deaths’ you keep attributing to not vaccinating…”

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You mean the “supposed” deaths that essentially meant a century ago, a stagering number of children never even reached adulthood? Granted, medical science has had other advances (besides the vaccines that pretty much erradicated most childhood diseases) to increase the odds of survival for our little ones, but it’s the wishful thinking of the likes of you and other anti-vaxxers that’s allowing those nearly extinct childhood diseases to slowly but inevitably resurface. While fatalities are, to date, rare (of both the diseases and the vaccines), the numbers are on the rise. when the number of cases goes up, it’s only a matter of time before these diseases start claiming more victims.

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Just remember, this time it will be on your head.

@WHAT YOU TALKIN
I feel really honored that you took the time to enter my name into Google. However until you stop acting like a childish buffoon no one is going to take you seriously. Feel free to fire as many Ad-hominem’s as you like; you only look like a jackass.

Best Wishes,
~Your Friendly Neighbourhood Skeptic

Must read material for those unnecessarily frightened of vaccination:

Why we changed our minds and started to vaccinate.

What? Mercola and Jenny McCarthy NOT experts? Who knew?

Many different messages here!
One is saying “If you dont vaccinate you are a child abuser and yor child will DIE of preventable disease” and “every single time there’s a reduction in rates of vaccination, preventable disease rates shoot right back up”. @DanBuzzard why aren’t these parents whose unvaccinated childrem die coming forward? Im talking about CURRENT deaths from not vaccinating. Why arent these supposed child abusers being charged? Because they dont exist!
But yet when I ask about where these supposed ‘deaths’ and illness we dont actually see them anymore because they are ‘abolished’ due to vaccination. If vaccinations really are ‘preventing’ disease and making us ‘immune’ to these diseases why do the number of vaccinations keep increasing. Why do we have 360% more vaccinations than when I was a kid? Why is 1, 2, 3 or 4 whooping cough jabs not enough? Sure, there might be some type of measureable reaction to the vaccination ingredients, but it isnt protecting anyone long-term.

scep dick, yeah, I know- one dead baby (i.e. Dana McCaaffery) wouldn’t change your mind, either.

Shame on you.

Oh the irony. People – you are here, you are screaming, where is the censorship? If this type of thread looks unfamiliar to you, maybe you should have a look at the genuine censorship in your nice little echo chamber. The one where Meryl deletes all facts and anyone who tries to introduce them.
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Magazines have the right and indeed the obligation to refuse to print lies. Freedom of information must include freedom from misinformation.
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Oh and Emily, since the discovery of HIV in the 80s our understanding of the immune system has exploded, it has changed extremely rapidly over the last couple of decades. There are very few, you know, real books written about it because the people who understand it are too busy doing research. So if you’re getting your information from books, they’re probably completely out of date or written by people who have no idea what they’re talking about.

I don’t think @scep dick is getting the point.
The reason kids aren’t dying left and right any more is because we ARE vaccinating our kids. The reduction in risks for your unvaccinated kid are a direct result of everyone else not listening to the antivax lies and getting their kids protected. In essence, you are the selfish leech who’s getting a free ride on the back of the rest of society.
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But the problems start when there are too many leeches, and the protection provided by everyone else’s immunity is insufficient to keep these once erradicated diseases at bay. You are directly responsible for any unvaccinated newborns or elderly people who die of preventable diseases because they or someone they know came into contact with your disease infested kids.
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If it were just your own kids’ lives on the line, one could reasonably argue that it’s a parent’s choice (like choosing not to take your kid to the doctor when they break a leg and patch it up with duct tape instead).
But when other people’s lives are at risk because of your choices, it becomes a community issue (like patching up the brake lines of your car with chewing gum and killing a crossing pedestrian when they fail on you).
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You have the right to believe in nonsense and to make the wrong choices in your life. But you don’t have the right to waive the responsibility for the mistakes you made because of that nonsense.

Are any of these AVNers even reading this site? It doesn’t appear to me as though they are at all. Oh the hipocricy.

LEAVE THE AVN ALONE!!! YOU PEOPLE r all IDOITS!
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IF it wasn’T for MEryl and the avn, we would NEVER have known that the illumation shape shifting people are trying to KILL us ALL with the microchiped vaxina, vacci, vacsyn, … needles.
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We need to no this stuff. Thanks AVN for giving me BOTH sides. And I no your an IDOIT because you will approve my insults like you did with all those other insults. Meryl would never do that and she says so here. Unlike you, she likes to publish BOTH sides that agree with her. Your so dum you even publish people who say yor dum!
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IDOIT!
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My apologies to those who are able to question the benefits of vaccination with at least a modicum of apparent sanity.
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For the record, I have deep sympathy for people whose children have suffered, whether as a result of vaccination or not. No one is arguing that vaccination is completely free of risk but weighing up evidence does not mean giving equal weight to all possible outcomes. If you do this you will never go out in a car or even on foot since both carry documented risks of fatality. Even eating can lead to choking – people have died from eating sandwiches! Based on this, will you never give your child a sandwich?
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One of the leading causes of death is slipping in the bath. Should we never bathe? If you always give equal weight to risks over benefits, how can you function in a world filled with substantial risks? Can any of you list three things that carry absolutely no risk whatsoever? Anything?
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Hell, getting pregnant carries enormous risks to mother and baby. If you really want to avoid all possible risk to your child, don’t have one. It truly is the only way.
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The risk:benefit ratio is what really matters and this is where Meryl and the AVN fall down – they sell it as all risk and no benefit – and they don’t even get the risks right. Surely even the most ardent AVN supporter must rethink that support when vaccinations are portrayed as a world-wide conspiracy to microchip us all and then kill us be the millions? Surely? And yes, Meryl did post such an article on her blog. Have any AVN supporters ever condemned this conspiracy link?

Jason hi

You first, anonymous troll?
Not sure what that means.
(hint: the information is available, if you have a modicum of research skill) – I guess I don’t. I’ve had a look around the site and used Google, can’t really find anything.
Like I said, just like to know some qualifications.
Maybe Rachael could let me know.
peace

Now, let’s get a few things straight.
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Is the pharmaceutical industry perfect? No. Have there been failures in pre-release research and regulation? You betcha. When the pharmaceutical industry gets it wrong, the impact can be huge. Vioxx & Celebrex are recent examples of failures, historical examples like thalidomide come to mind.
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However, commenter ‘oh please’ is a prime example of how not to effect change in the function of pharmaceutical manufacturing and regulation. Does the industry deserve criticism? Yep. However, overplaying your hand doesn’t convince anyone, it just makes the world think you’re a wackjob. The primary mark of a wackjob is failure to understand statistical risks and put them in perspective.
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There were NOT 100,000 deaths attributable to Vioxx and Merck did NOT ‘know they’d kill people.’ It’s hard to tell how many deaths or heart attacks were actually caused by Vioxx because plenty of people have cardiopulmonary problems without ever having used Vioxx. Merck paid claims on about 3100 cases of adverse reactions which could have been related to Vioxx; not all were fatalities and paying a claim is not proof that the medication caused an injury. Quite often, it’s cheaper and less stressful (for pharmaceutical makers and patients) to settle a claim than fight it to the death.
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I’m a victim of a traffic incident (NOT an ‘accident’) with a drink driver. I’m permanently disabled. I’ve had 6 knee surgeries and have chronic pain from 3 spinal injuries. I’m an unusually large consumer of medical services and medications- my pharmacist and I are on a first name basis. I was prescribed both Vioxx and Celebrex for joint inflammation. I didn’t have any adverse reaction from either, but I certainly have had adverse reactions from other meds.
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I’ve got every reason in the world to jump up and down and scream that ‘Big Pharma’ and GPs are profit-motivated frauds and quacks- but I don’t. Why? To do so throws the baby out with the bathwater.

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For every example you can name of a medication or procedure that doesn’t go according to plan, there’s literally thousands which do go well. I’m actually looking forward to my artificial knee joints. I honestly can’t wait! Unfortunately, I’m a bit too young to get them yet; the hardware only lasts about 20 years before revision surgery is needed- and I don’t want to have the job done more than once. When I turn 50, I’m having bilateral knee joint replacements.

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There’s some medicines and procedures that literally are good as gold. The rate of adverse reactions is very low and the benefits are remarkably good. Knee joint replacements and vaccinations are both in that class.
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Like many mere mortals, I can’t be fussed with researching every drug or procedure to the Nth degree, even though I certainly do have the smarts to understand statistics. I have a compromise agreement with my GP; anything that’s been on the market for less than 5 years needs extraordinary proof of benefit before I’ll participate.
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Vaccines have been around for many decades now and the risk/benefit ratios are solidly favourable. If you have a negative impression of them, you’ve been fooled. You have every right to fool yourself, though… but to run around in a panic trying to fool others is both irresponsible and will get you cast as a Chicken Little wackjob every time.
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I gotta say, if I were running PR for a pharmaceutical company and I wanted to make the public feel safer about a medicine, I’d be sorely tempted to pull a Dorey on it. The general public would sit back and think ‘ah, the wackjobs are opposed, must be fine.’

@oh please

Meryl… Could that be you, Meryl?

@oh please, I am not in the habit of disclosing my qualifications to anonymous commentators on this blog. Especially those whose first contribution is “what a horrible horrible site”.
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In light of this, you must excuse me for not being overly enthusiastic about responding to your request. Also, given that you are posting anonymously leads me to question your sincerity.
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In any case as @Jason said, this information is public, it’s not a secret. And it’s not hard to find either.

Ack! seems like the third link didn’t make it through. Here it is again.

no, Im not Meryl lol
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The FDA estimates – I can see you grinning already. The figure of 27,785 heart attacks *and* deaths. is also all I can find. But I know that I’ve read much higher figures (estimated by the FDA) but fine, let me have it!
If you look here http://www.newswithviews.com/Richards/byron190.htm
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“Numerous aftershocks followed: the painkiller Vioxx was estimated by FDA safety expert and whistleblower Dr. David Graham to have killed at least 55,000 Americans from heart attacks and strokes.
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This is only in the USA.
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Graham’s testimony can be found here: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/03/02/david-graham-testimonial.aspx

Animal vaccinations: wild animals generally die from being eaten or old age or a bad injury or starvation. Farm animals & pets are different, they are no longer in the wild – I know that they’re vaccinations are routine, just like us.
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I don’t really care who maggie is and I have had enough of this site.
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I wish you all well in your endevours
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bye

Add Tasmanian Devils to the list of animals under threat by disease. The facial cancer spreading among wild devils is of greate concern and researchers are currently working on determining if the cause of the cancer is a virus and if that virus could perhaps be eliminated by. . . (drumroll please)
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A VACCINE!
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Animals in the wild die of disease all the time – you just don’t see the disease, only the dead animal. Go read up on some African wildlife disease studies – most instructive.
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Also – heard of rabies?

Was it a real ‘bye’ do you think or an “I’ve-lost-this-argument-so-I-am-going-to-lurk-here-in-the-shadows-and-sulk” ‘bye’?

oh Please also seems to find their information in places with poor reputations for accuracy and low standards for evidence. Never a good starting point.

Ha – “solid and reliable” That should be Mercola’s new slogan. It fits right up there with Fox News “Fair and Balanced”.

Hi I’m back
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Just love a good discussion!
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Firstly sorry Maggie – I apologies for what I said about this site and retract it. It doesn’t do anything for anyone.
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Ok, lets get to business:
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Chlamydia is a disease present in most koalas which under normal circumstances they cope with without any dramas. It’s when they are placed under stress (ie loss of habitat, barking dogs etc) that the infection can become fatal. Don’t know much about the Tasmanian Devil but I’d suspect that as with chlamydia, the current outbreak of the disease is primarily caused by man’s impact on their environment.
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For a growing number of people (at least in my perception) that in a nutshell is the number one issue today: we are far removed from how nature intended us to live and are paying the price.
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The problem with people like me having discussions with people like you is that our base beliefs are at opposite ends of the spectrums: it’s like a Catholic arguing with a Muslim as to who’s religion is “correct”.
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So although I know that you’ll disagree with my views (as I do with yours) I’ll tell you what I think anyway. Not sure why I’m doing this, might be therapeutic.
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Firstly man has stuffed things up big time. The error in our thinking is that we know better than nature. We don’t – and never will.
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Most modern diseases are a result of our environment – in particular our food and air and water. There are other issues too: the stress most people are now under, invisible hazards such as electromagnetic radiation. Also important is the fact that we’ve lost touch with nature through living in such an artificial environment.
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Food is probably the biggest issue – ours is grown in depleted soils, it is chemical laden and it is over processed.
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Our immune systems struggle in a way they weren’t designed to.
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But rather than focus on the causes the focus is on the symptoms. Most people would agree that it’s that way because there’s money in it.
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Diabetes 2 is curable through a natural diet, as are many other diseases.
There is little money to research this and prove it scientifically because there is no profit for the Pharmaceuticals and even worse, it would cure people. Natural cures are routinely suppressed/ignored/ridiculed.
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Even the benefits of intravenous vitamin C, although published in various medical journals over the last 100 years, are not considered by mainstream medicine.
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Most people would agree that nutrition is important for health. The average medical doctor in the U.S. spends about 2 and a half hours on Nutition during his/her training. It doesn’t make sense until one understands who funds much of their training.
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Why is natural medicine under such relentless attack worldwide? I would have to include this site in that question. What motivates what I assume are normal people to at times viciously attack varying aspects of natural medicine?
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The death toll from natural medicine is somewhere around zero. The injury toll isn’t much higher.
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Yet Mainstream medicine kills untold numbers of people every year through correct medication and incorrect medication. And how many lives does it save? Many I would hope.
The effectiveness of many drugs is questionable. It has been shown recently that placebos used in many drug trials are about as effective as the drug.
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It has been reported that the residues from these medicines is now having a negative impact on the environment (at least in the US) entering primarily through sewerage.
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And of course vaccinations fall under mainstream medicine.
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Vaccinations are a cashcow for the pharmaceuticals. The industry has been shown to be pretty ruthless in the pursuit of money. Putting their vaccines in our kids is a bit like asking a thief to take care of our house while we’re on holidays – but worse.
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The argument is always that the science says it’s safe/effective etc. The only problem with that is that the majority of the science is conducted/funded/guided by the industry.

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And there are some interesting issues at the moment that don’t make sense to me:
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Why would Bill Gates donate an amazing amount of money (10billion from memory) to vaccinate 3rd world children, where if he allocated just a small fraction of that money to provide sources of clean drinking water he would save tens of thousands more lives. He’s a smart man Bill so what’s this all about?
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Why have we (Australia) donated 600,600 doses of H1N1 vaccine to Laos. Wouldn’t more lives be saved through providing sources of clean water?
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And in regard to the H1N1 vaccine do we take no note of Wolfgang Wodarg (Outgoing Chair of the Council of Europe’s Sub-committee on Health)?
Why did WHO change the definition of pandemic?
And why was nothing ever done about Baxter’s contaminated vaccines that were sent out all over Europe (last year?). No fines, no investigations (correct me if I’m wrong on that one – that was the last I heard).
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More questions but my fingers are sore, I’m done for now.
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peace

In prehistoric times, average life expectancy was estimated to be less than 20 years of age. [source]
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In 1850, life expectancy for white US males was around 38 years. Today it is over 75. [source]
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It’s like people who insist Chinese “medicine” is superior to real medicine without noting that life expectancy in China is around 10 years less it is here. [source]
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“Belief” doesn’t enter into it unless you have contradictory statistics. I’m with Grendel on this one – “belief” and “willful ignorance” are not the same thing.

Grendel thanks for your input, I’m at work right now and haven’t really got the time to absorb it and respond, I’ll try & do so when I get home.
AndyD:
Yes life expectation has incresed but I’m not sure what your point is, could you please elaborate.
Also where did I mention an “evil conspiracy”? If you have a problem with chlorinated or fluoridated water maybe you should start filtering it or talk to your state government.
cheers

I’ve has another look around Gate’s Foundation website. Much of the discussion about improving things in underdeveloped countries is focused on the use of vaccines.
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I can’t really find anything about clean water (could you send me a link) apart from a few general statements.
This link also includes Bill which you might like to comment on: http://www.examiner.com/x-40801-Vaccines-Examiner~y2010m4d8-HPV-vaccinations-in-India-Moral-and-ethical-questions-raised-by-health-advocacy-groups?cid=channel-rss-Health
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BTW Grendel if my remarks sound angry they’re not meant to.
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peace

Let’s face facts:
Anti-vaxxers are followers of a dogmatic cult, which brooks no dissent that relies on evidence.
Meryl is the poster-child of such a konspiracy kult.

Thanks Andy – you are correct in what I intended to say.

Sorry “oh please”, I guess I was a little misled by your first entry on this page…
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“What a horrible horrible site.
All I know is that I don’t trust big pharma. Vioxx killed over 100,000 people (Merck knew it would), the swine flu was a scam, the tests for Tamiflu were made up and so much more. And these people want to inject my kids? yeh right. Science isn’t science any more, it’s an input used to sell a commodity, paid for and twisted to suit.”
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My apologies if I mistook that as something of a put-down for the sort the people who might think this site worthy. I don’t know what I was thinking. In my defence, I’ll add that I often find it difficult to differentiate between trolls, concern trolls, Poes and the genuinely credulous but alter my tone in relation to responses I receive. I should add that “credulous” is not intended as an insult.
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I’m still interested to know how it is that a 38 year life expectancy in 1850 to over 75 years today isn’t almost a doubling in 160 years. I’m willing to concede the stats might be incorrect if you have better ones. I really didn’t spend a lot of time looking. I know it’s another question but that’s how we learn.

Hi guys,
Andy what I refer to in regards to life expectancy is that pre 1900 there was extremely high infant and childhood mortality. If one reached the age of 30 or 40 then one would expect to live much longer than 38 (Not however to the current life expectancy age).
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From what I have read much improvement early last century came predominantly from improved sanitation and consistently clean water.
Of course improvements in medicine played a large part too.
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So although it’s technically correct to say that a new born’s life expectancy was about 38 it is was not true for those surviving the first few years of life. The figure makes it seem that anyone who was 35 had one foot in the grave which was not the case.
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As for my remark: what a horrible horrible site” – I did apologise for that and retract it.
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The words “Big Pharma” refer to the Pharmaceutical industry and not to any conspiracy theory (when I use them).
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And I stand by the rest of what I’ve said there. I have a healthy scepticism regarding Big Pharma (puns intended).
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Grendel: It’s hard to talk about this sort of stuff and get one’s views across in this format. Having said that I’ll have another go.
Western science (for lack of a better term) seems to be mostly about “drilling down” – it is completely about the physical, looking further and further into a specific thing. In my view it’s a very blinkered approach. Quantum physics on the other hand is a more holistic approach and looks at how our universe is intertwined.
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I find it interesting that our thoughts/state of mind can change the way water is structured. I find it interesting that an observed experiment in a lab can have a different result when unobserved. The Placebo effect is fascinating.
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The implications of just these 3 facts is enourmous. But while money makes the world go around there are only a handful of people doing meaningful research.
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There is no place for this sort of science for industries like big pharma.
I’m doing a crappy job of explaining myself.
Anyway I hope you get the gist of it.
I haven’t referenced any of it but I’ll assume you’ll let me know if anything I’ve said you believe to be bs.
many thanks

oh please!:

Andy what I refer to in regards to life expectancy is that pre 1900 there was extremely high infant and childhood mortality.

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Why do you think that the child mortality is much less now?
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oh please!:

I find it interesting that our thoughts/state of mind can change the way water is structured.

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Oh, really? Do you have any evidence that is an actual fact? Because that does not seem to happen in reality.
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Perhaps you might enlighten us on your understanding of quantum physics by telling us what the word “quantum” was coined for. It means a quantity of something, what was that something they were counting?

@oh please, are you a scientist? Because if you were you would know that not all research goes on in Big Pharma – and BTW if you use this term you will be tarred with the conspiracy theory intent brush I’m afraid – it has become synonymous with the anti-vax lobby (maybe they even coined it).
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(And you just posted a link to a well know anti-vax site in NVIC)
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I also wonder where you derive this from: “there are only a handful of people doing meaningful research”. Not sure exactly what you mean by that. You only need to take a look at the hundreds of thousands of articles on PubMed to get some idea of the amount of meaningful research being conducted. And much of it at private, independent institutes, not at “Big Pharma”.

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Hell, I can even give you a couple of examples from my workplace.

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The Angiogenesis Group, in conjunction with the RPA hospital and USyd are developing synthetic arteries for transplant in heart disease. This is to overcome the problem that arteries taken from elsewhere in the body and used to replace diseased coronary arteries only last for ~10 years, meaning you need to get the procedure again. If this team, headed by Dr Martin Ng, is successful then this could avoid repeat open heart bypass surgeries, thus reducing morbidity and mortality in patients.
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BTW heart disease is Australia’s number one killer, and is increasing with the obesity epidemic so breakthroughs like this have the potential to make significant improvements in patient care and quality of life, and reduce burden on the over-stretched health system.
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The same group also found out testosterone has a protective effect against heart disease, which may explain the phenomenon of men getting early onset and more severe heart disease, concomitant with declining levels of testosterone (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071503).
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The lower risk in women was previously thought to be from the female hormone estrogen offering protective effects, but work from Dr Ng’s group has shown that testosterone can assist in new vessel growth and repair, thus having a cardio-protective effect. They are currently recruiting patients through the RPA to do a trial of testosterone replacement therapy to see if this can reduce the male risk of heart disease, hence morbidity and mortality. See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100113172304.htm
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This work is being conducted at The Heart Research Institute, the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital and the University of Sydney. I do not know all the fine details of the funding for these projects, except that majority comes from the government body, the NH&MRC or the National Heart Foundation. Not from Big Pharma.

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This is just a “handful” of some of the independent research ongoing in Unis and Institutes the world over, check PubMed for tonnes more. If you think it’s not meaningful then I’d be interested to know why.

I don’t think you’ll find too many science-minded people disagreeing that good food and exercise plus clean air and water are the basis of a healthy lifestyle. But does it prevent polio, mumps, pertussis or measles in infants? That’s where we ask to see your evidence that vaccines are all but useless (I’ll add again that both sewerage and water treatment are soundly based in scientific germ theory which is absolutely at odds with magical theories like homeopathy).
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I’ll also add that all forms of “medicine”, whether real or magical/natural are generally used to treat symptoms. Even a homeopath will tell you that homeopathy won’t work if you don’t have the right symptoms. Same goes for a naturopath trying to sort out whatever ails you. So I assume you think the homeopaths and naturopaths are incorrectly focusing their attention too?
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Nor will you find science-minded people mindlessly defending “big pharma”. Indeed Ben Goldacre and David Gorski, perhaps two of the most popular science-based medicine bloggers, routinely take “big pharma” to task for skewing evidence and publishing shonky research. But just because someone makes money from something doesn’t mean everything they do is suspect. How could we survive if we applied that thinking across the board? Seat belts? Don’t trust ‘em. Parachutes? No way, uh uh! Groceries from the local farmer? Must be laced with toxins or something because he charges money for them. Homeopaths? Have you seen what they charge – must be lying.
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On that note, can I also ask, sincerely, do you trust Boiron, a multi-million dollar company and the single-largest producer of homeopathic remedies in the world? Do you think they care about people or profits? Would you ever use their flu remedy?
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I also would like to see evidence that water cares what we think and that you truly have any understanding of quantum physics (because I’ve read quite a lot about it and I’d still really like someone to explain it to me in simple terms. Do you know, for example how to collapse a wave function and can you explain, in a practical way, the paradox of Schrödinger’s cat? And how do you know something was different until you tested it?

@oh please, I don’t have time to cover everything you’ve said but I wanted to address this comment; “Apart from financially at least they do no harm. Unless one brings up the argument that the patient will miss out on “proper” treatment, which is a valid but complex discussion.”
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They do no harm? Wrong. And this is not a complex discussion. It’s quite simple, people die. I have covered this on the blog before, one example – nine-month-old Gloria Sam who was severely ill with eczema died from an infection because her parents shunned conventional science-based medicine and instead used homeopathy. They were convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to minimum of six years in jail for her father and at least four for her mother. See http://www.smh.com.au/national/jail-for-parents-who-allowed-daughter-to-die-20090928-g8x2.html
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Also see What’s the Harm in homeopathy?
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And no, no, no, homeopathy is not like vaccination – you are beginning to sound more and more like an anti-vaxer, or at least you are sourcing your information from them. Vaccines contain a small part of the virus or bacteria, this can be a small part of viral/bacterial protein, to as much as the entire virus that has been “inactivated” so as not to cause disease. This is designed, based on what we know about the immune system, to elicit an immune response, which is to make antibodies, so that next time your body comes into contact with the same disease, it is armed and ready for action.
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This process can be measured via looking for the number of antibodies that the vaccine elicits – and when you have detectable antibodies you are immunized. Of course this is a very simplified version of events- there are several types of antibodies and different types of cells involved, but we have characterised many of these processes.
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On the other hand, homeopathy is water, or sugar pills, with magic vibrations that somehow remembers the last compound in it, but not the thousands of others that have passed through it over the years (for the sake of clarity animal faeces and urine?).

Maggie I get your point.
I’ll concede that I’m as ignorant on Homeopathy as – and I say this to get a smile – you think I am on vaccinations.
I see your link above and will have a look shortly.
So let’s not mention it for now, let’s just agree that I have no opinion on it.

regards

@oh please, could you please provide a link to this info? It’s a bit hard for me address it without having access to the source.

Ta

Ok, so you need to take note of this section of the pdf:
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Includes vaccine ingredients (e.g., adjuvants and preservatives) as well as substances used during the manufacturing process, including vaccine-production media, that are removed from the final product and present only in trace quantities.

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(my emphasis). For example you said: Bovine Protein, Bovine Albumin and Calf Serum Protein. These are essentially the same thing referred to under the umbrella of bovine serum albumin and this is used in cell culture to provide growth factors to cells. The same can be said for Human Serum. Vaccines are sometimes produced in cells in culture – I do cell culture everyday – and then the vaccine is purified out of the cells. So as the document says, there may be trace amounts left when the manufacturing process is done.
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This applies for Chick Embryo Fibroblasts, Chick Kidney Cells, Monkey Kidney Tissue and MRC-5s which are all types of cells which can be used to culture the vaccine, after which it is purified. This also explains the MRC-5 DNA and MRC-5 Cellular Protein – this may remain in trace amounts because if the vaccine is cultured in these cells, some of them might “break open” during the purification process, thus releasing DNA and protein. Same can be said for insect cell protein. I already covered eggs and egg protein.

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If you don’t know much about the manufacture of vaccines, this stuff can sound scary, and also when shown in a long list like this. Also remember that the toxicity is in the dose, so many of these scary sounding compounds are actually harmless in small doses. Also, gelatin is used in cooking, and is sodium chloride (table salt).
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Remember that water in excessive doses will kill you too.

@oh please, thanks for the link, I’ve had a look, but after a day of writing scientific papers, I am exhausted (for a deadline tmr). I will get back to you as soon as I am able.

Both Bruce Lipton and Masaru Emoto are considered cranks. Their opinions have absolutely no weight in scientific discussion, hence the lack of real scientific papers to support their notions.
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Since you did not provide the very simple one word answer to my question about the word “quantum”, I assume that you have absolutely no understanding of the related science. So please do not bring up quantum physics as a reason to explain pseudo-science again.
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If you do wish to understand what it refers to, you should read a bit about the history of physics starting with Young’s double slit experiment, and then on to the discoveries of the early part of the twentieth century. I just came upon the very simple answer to my question in the first few chapters of the biography of Paul Dirac, “The Strangest Man” (disclaimer, I have been known to use the Dirac Delta Function).

It’s a bit hard talking to so many people at once.
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AndyD:
The author of the SV40 site has been accused of being a shill for a Dr Burzynski who appears to be a “cancer quack”
Could you let me know who has made the above accusations
And
I honestly don’t know what a shill is, could you let me know.
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Dr Burzynski – appears to be a cancer quack – does this mean you’re not sure whether his work is not at least equal (in terms of patient outcomes) to standard cancer treatments?

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The following article, although obviously pro Bursynski, is a fairly accurate account of his legal battles with the FDA, have you taken the FDA’s view as your own?
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BC-BURZYN-RESEARCH ( BW)(BURZYN-RESEARCH) Outraged cancer patients protest FDA’s deadly action Business Editors HOUSTON–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Feb. 5, 1996–Seriously-ill but outraged cancer patients of Houston Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski will gather at the Houston Federal Building on Tuesday at 10:00 AM to protest an FDA action depriving them of a treatment most say is their last hope for life. Late Friday afternoon, U.S. District Court Judge Sim Lake told attorneys for Houston M.D. and Ph.D Stanislaw Burzynski that he will issue a decree this week forbidding him from treating patients who live outside of Texas. More than 90% of Dr. Burzynski’s patients are not Texas residents. The ruling sharply contrasted with a Dec. 8 hearing, at which Judge Lake said he would `not prohibit 1/8Dr. Burzynski 3/8 from treating people when the government has had 12 years to bring this indictment.` It was not clear what was behind the judge’s abrupt about-face. The move is the latest development in a 13-year battle between the FDA and the Polish-born doctor, the inventor of what many consider the most promising cancer therapy to date. In 1991 a team of National Cancer Institute (NCI) experts reviewed the records of seven patients with normally incurable brain tumors and verified five complete remissions-disappearances of tumor. In a 1993 hearing in Austin, the NCI’s Chief of Neuroradiology testified that patients would die if deprived of Dr. Burzynski’s drug, antineoplastons. Dr. Burzynski first discovered his antineoplaston treatment in Poland while working on his Ph.D thesis. He found naturally-occurring non-toxic peptides in blood that in many cases can `re-program` cancer cells to die like normal cells, without the toxic effects of conventional chemotherapy. He moved to the U.S. in 1970 to escape communist oppression and seek freedom of conscience. In 1983 the FDA filed civil suit in federal court to stop Dr. Burzynski from treating patients. Judge Gabrielle McDonald ruled that Dr. Burzynski may not ship his drugs out of state, but may continue to manufacture and use them within the State of Texas. Robert Spiller, the FDA’s associate chief counsel for enforcement, told the judge he would ignore her decision and do whatever necessary to stop Dr. Burzynski, `such as actions for seizure and condemnation of the drugs or criminal prosecutions…` Since then, Dr. Burzynski has been the target of four federal grand jury investigations. The first three did not return indictments. The fourth grand jury investigation caught the attention of Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX), Chairman of a House Investigations Subcommittee. Following hearings on FDA abuses of authority, Barton concluded that `Dr. Burzynski has been the victim of an extraordinary abuse of our legal system…` Committee member Richard Burr (R-NC) commented `the FDA is an agency out of control. Its lawyers have such a weak case it’s not prosecution, it’s persecution.` Ironically, Dr. Burzynski is currently conducting four Phase II clinical trials approved by the FDA, and is more than halfway through the FDA’s approval process. His own manufacturing facility has passed FDA inspection as well. Reports on Dr. Burzynski have been featured on or in: The New York Times US News and World Report Good Housekeeping ABC News Nightline CBS Evening News CBS This Morning CBS Street Stories Sally Jesse Raphael Gabe Pressman Investigative Reports
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“and there do seem to be questions related to SV40 50 years ago – but not today”
I think this statement, for whatever your reason, is severely understating the importance of the issues surrounding SV40. Did you click on the “who we are” tab (http://www.sv40foundation.org/Who-we-are.html)? Quite clearly it is very possibly an issue today.
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“All cancer doctors are only in it for the money so choose to ignore things that work in favour of toxic things that don’t? Conspiracy theory much?”
Essentially it’s their opinion and as has been indicated to me on this site it is the facts that we need to determine.
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“Essentially it appears the parents (site autho…etc”
Getting more and more off the issue.
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“You can read more about Stanislav Burzylnski here and here.”
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I don’t generally go to quackbuster type sites, I find them overly biased.
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“did you just assume, for some reason, that Horwin must be right about his child’s death and medical scientists are hiding the facts? I’m genuinely interested, not trying to put words in your mouth.”
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Horwin’s child died of a tumour soon after his polio vaccination.
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SV40 was found in the child’s tumour. It was not present at birth or in his parents. All of these facts are independently verified.
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I did what I assume Horwin did: the maths – that’s the only assumption I made

Oh Please – I recommend you read up on Quantum Physics. ‘Quantum’ is the new ‘Millenium’ as in the current buzzword being applied to all kinds of things in order to increase their marketability. Most of the time there is nothing from the field of Quantum Physics related with the product.
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This is particularly disturbing when ushered into the world of medicine and health care generally. Quantum science is as rigourous a discipline as any other science – and some suggest that due to the nature of it as ‘axiomatic’.
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If you are geniunely interested the following links are instructive starting points:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics
http://www.stanford.edu/~mukul/tutorials/Quantum_Mechanics.pdf
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I guess the point of this is that there is just science – there are not bits better than others (although there is science done well and science done poorly) but for those of use interested in public health the questions that have to be asked when we look at vaccination requires that we look at the evidence. The evidence is clear, it is long term and it is repeatable – Vaccination reduces the risk to the individual of illness and death with only a miniscule risk from the vaccination itself.

Chris your comments remind me of the saying: “if you can’t attack the debate, attack the person”.
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Not only do you not address my questions your post don’t provide any meaningful input.
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What I don’t understand is that if you are so pro vaccine (which is fine, really) and you are so convinced by the science is solid why not try to convince me rather than spending most of your words ridiculing me?
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I don’t really care but I am beginning to wonder what your motivation is. If I was a sceptic I would suspect that you are an anti vaxxer trying to make this site look like it’s frequented by immature, vindictive people.
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Please either discuss my points or concede.
many thanks

I’m sorry, since you cannot even answer my very simple question I cannot be bothered by to even read your blatherings.

Give it a rest, and go and catch up on your education.

Chris:
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Thanks for your final insult, I understand your position.
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“Perhaps you might enlighten us on your understanding of quantum physics by telling us what the word “quantum” was coined for. It means a quantity of something, what was that something they were counting?”
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I didn’t answer this b’c it doesn’t seem important to our discussion. Not sure if quantum physics refers too counting or just identifying but to my understanding it is the smallest thing that something physical contains not particularly proven by physical identification but by quantum theory.
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Gendel
I’ve run out of time today,
I’ll have a look at your comments tomorrow
cheers

Ahh, crap! Try this link

And – fairly sure that was the CDC’s conclusion on SV40 – and shared by numerous other independent medical organisations as well.

In any case the potential for contamination from SV40 is now long gone from our polio vaccines.

I’m going to have to spell it out aren’t I?
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ISV40 was found in a child and it was not present in him, his mother or his father prior to his poilio vaccination. A short time later (less than a year) the child developed a brain tumour that contained SV40.
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Where did it come from?? This is the all important question!
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Unfortunately we are guided in this modern age to believe that it is in the authorities that we must trust. This mentality is so rife now that on it’s own it is often used as an argument against someone who questions an “authorative view” (please check your own above posts for evidence – and probably below).
“Since SV40 has not been present in polio vaccines since 1962”!!??
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Did you not read what I posted? When presented with 2 contradicting possibilities such as we have here your position is to defend, at all costs, the position of modern medicine.
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So did the SV40 come from the scientiffically most likely source (polio vaccination). I don’t know and neither do you. And we’ll likely never know for sure. Do you think Merck sent their top team of expert in to try and find out – not likely.
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You come up with things like ” And – fairly sure that was the CDC’s conclusion” and “I offer it only as additional information. I’ll leave it for others to confirm or dismiss it as a useful study” and expect to convince me.
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And quoting from a single obscure study from France doesn’t help much either.
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The funny thing is that we haven’t even started to discuss (that’s not the right word but I can’t think of a better one) the polio vaccine itself.
So let’s just forget it.
Here’s some other things for you to deny:
The origin of HIV/AIDS: In the deep dark jungles of Africa HIV jumped from monkey to man, travelled backwards in time (a year or 2) and presented in certain groups of gay men in the U.S.
The only problem is, for those of us who allow ourselves to think for ourselves, it doesn’t make sense, it’s not logical.
http://www.originofaids.com/articles/early.htm

What’s the first for a doctor? Do no harm.
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Do no Harm? – Here’s a study from the U.S., and there are many like it, that show an annual death rate of 100,000 due to correctly prescribed and administered drugs. These figures are for hopsitalised people only!
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2 Million people in hospital every year suffer a serious adverse drug reaction per year!
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But wait there’s more: The data did not include fatal reactions caused by accidental overdoses or errors in administration of the drugs. If these had been included, it is estimated that another 100,000 deaths would be added to the total every year.
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The researchers concluded that ADRs are now the fourth leading cause of death in the United States after heart disease, cancer, and stroke.
Ah yes I hear you say, they should have read the warnings on the bottles. But you tell us to trust our medical establishment with blind faith, which is it to be?
Source: Jason, et al. (Lazarou et al), Incidence of Adverse Drug Reactions in Hospitalized Patients, Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), Vol. 279. April 15, 1998, pp. 1200-05
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I could give you so much more information which you could spend so much more time feverishly googling and defending but I won’t.
I truly wonder what the untold death toll is from modern medicine. I wonder how much human suffering it has caused.
And I wonder how different a world this would be if modern medicine was used only to benefit humanity, and not to benefit Big Pharma.

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One last thing:
In an earlier post I said: I read about the monkeys livers, chicken eggs, human placentas, beef embryos and even live chicken blood that is used to make various vaccines and I seriously wonder whether it should read “real/witchcraft or natural”.
Maggie then said: This is straight out of the anti-vaxers book of misinformation. The only thing correct about this is the chicken eggs – they are currently used to culture flu vaccines.
So Maggie your one of the people that run this site? You’re a leader in this “debate”. Following the above statement I can only really draw one of 2 conclusions.
You are a liar – and given the serious nature of the vaccination issue that makes you a dangerous person to be “leading the charge” on this site.
Or
You are ignorant in the fields of vaccination and the anti vaccination stance – and given the serious nature of the vaccination issue that makes you a dangerous person to be “leading the charge” on this site.
I wish you all well, now that I am leaving (now realising what this site is really about and who it represents) I’ll leave you al to it.

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You can either post or not, it doesn’t matter. You’re the only ones reading it.
Maybe you can post some more clever comments and have a massdebate together, seems like it’s what you’re good at.

I’m intrigued why you are worried about things like monkey livers and such. Can I assume you’re a vegan and avoid all contact with non-human animals?
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When you say that the only possible source for SV40 infection is the polio vax, can you cite evidence that this is the only way to become infected with the virus? You dismiss a research paper as a single obscure study from France so can you also show anywhere else, on a site not referencing the Horwin case, where SV40 is still implicated in modern vaccines and cancer?
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(Note: I also mentioned The Lancet but didn’t link it – though Google would have taken you straight to it if you tried. So that’s two studies.)
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Then can you show me where anyone on this site said we should all blindly believe what he authorities tell us?
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And once again, people die from seat belt injuries. Do you also wonder what his world would be like if seat belts were made to only save lives and not to profit manufacturers? Many people die using parachutes. Do you also wonder what this world would be like if parachutes were made only for saving lives, and not for profit? Most accidents at home occur in the bathroom and many people die from slipping in the bath. Do you lie awake at night wondering what the world would be like if bathrooms were designed only for safe bathing and not for profit? Is there any endeavour from which people are allowed to profit without you accusing them of trying to kill us all? Well, besides alternative medicine that is.
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It appears from your comment that you want real medicine to be magical. You want it to be perfect or else not used at all. If you can find one example of suffering, from the billions of people who use medicine and hospitals every year, you want the whole thing shut down – if anyone made a profit from it.
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Do you ever wonder how much human suffering and death has been avoided or postponed through real medicine? Ever?

it is clear that @ohplease does not even have a rudimentary understanding of science, given the statements about monkey livers etc. I routinely work with a cell line called MRC5s and these are lung fibroblasts which have been immortalised, and are derived from human lungs. So using @ohplease’s logic, I use human lungs in my research. Ummm, no.

Well, I’m still not sure s/he was for real. Most of the “arguments” were straight out of the believers’ book of pooh pooh and look at the name “oh please”. Did we not each hear ourselves saying that as we read each increasingly credulous contribution? I think s/he’s a Poe, or at best, a troll. Still dangerous because some people will unfortunately believe all the nonsense but I have my doubts that s/he is genuine.
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After all, we got almost everything but Mary Rodwell’s “Ancient Egyptian Helicopters and Submarines prove alien visitation”. If you’re still reading ‘oh please’ can you at least throw in support for Mary to round off your effort? Thanks.

I accept your criticisms.
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I also apologise for my rant.
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I had a bad day, sat down & checked the comments on this site and became frustrated that no-one would recognise the point I was trying to make.
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I’m not trying to make excuses, I’m just letting you know what happened. I feel ashamed that I could post comments like that, it’s not the way I normally go about things.
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In particular I apologise to Maggie. I retract what said. Of all the comments above yours seemed to me to be the most considered.
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Grendel a close second!
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regards

Truth be known I fell asleep during my chakra meditation and missed out on the one hour half priced crystal sale at the local spiritual enlightenment shop, boy was I pissed.

Actually that was quite funny. That’s a new side we hadn’t seen before. Where there’s humour, there’s hope (or parody/Poe).

Didn’t know what a “concern troll” was until now.
I was a “mainstream thinker”, ie (a modern medicine believer) until about 5 years ago when, for various reasons, I saw the light.
Vaccinations are only one beef I have. I do not like the way that the Pharmaceutical Industry goes about it’s business. They have hijacked modern medicine as a way of making lots and lots and lots of money. This is not a conspiracy theory, it’s all about greed. If it was just about the greed then it would not be such an important topic, but it’s not just about that, it’s about the human suffering that is being inflicted.
I am not Meryl. I don’t know Meryl but do know of her. I have my suspicions as to what is happening to and with the AVN and Meryl. But as they are only suspicions I won’t be posting them here. I’ll wait for time to sort it out.
I started posting here after I chanced across the site searching for I can’t even remember what.
I am a male with a wife and a couple of rugrats.
I don’t feel comfortable at this point providing my identity. But in all probability you don’t know me.
I was challenged in an earlier post about using the word “belief” in discussing my view on modern medicine. I also mentioned that I was fascinated by the placebo effect.
Here’s a recent article from The Australian”:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/the-promise-of-placebo-power-healing-secrets/story-e6frg8y6-1225845575117
Although I found the whole article interesting, as I’m sure that you wil/have, I’ve picked out a couple of bits from it:
“But just as this mind-body interaction can have positive results” – here the power of one’s mind (as a healing tool) is being alluded to!
As Finniss says: “Words are very powerful…” – by this he means that I can have an impact on your health by what I say and the way I say it.
“This may not please drug manufacturers, but Finniss says even Big Pharma is beginning to see the value of placebo research.” – Finniss is a conspiracy theorist!!?? lol
“But Benedetti isn’t convinced: “Drug companies want to predict placebo responders in advance, because they would like to discard them from clinical trials. But I don’t think this is right from a methodological point of view” – hmmmm, you know I actually think I agree with Big Pharma (can I use that now?). It makes sense to find out just how effective their drugs really are.

Modern medicine people talking about modern medicine and how what one believes will impact on their health outcome.

And I believe that the placebo effect and other “less scientific” areas, such as Emoto’s work http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B7MF9-4KWCRB2-C&_user=10&_coverDate=09%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1294939287&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=2c63bb03c8084b4fbde4e36324a31a38
are connected.
But while Big Pharma controls most of the money flow in medicine much potentially good research goes begging.
Having said that I believe that the answers are primarily in prevention. This belief can be supported “scientific evidence” model. If our society seriously focused on prevention we would be closing hospitals, not opening them.

That’s me!
I sorta figure that this site is for like minded people who are sceptical about more or less the same things. It occurred to me that maybe you don’t want the opposing point of view here (and I mean that with respect).
Let me know if that’s right then I’ll go away, although like many people I do enjoy a vigorous discussion.
Gotta go 5 mins ago to pick up a rugrat!
peace

Andy hi,
Thanks for your response.
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I’ve copied it onto Word and will paste it back with my comments. I think this’’ make things clearer for both of us.
When you post reasonable and seemingly considered comments, you’ll find most commenters here will respond in kind. When you blindly repeat conspiracy theories that have been dealt with across the sceptical blogosphere for years, you’ll find many commenters will respond with ridicule. IT’s an unfortunate reality.

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I’ll take your point on board from now on

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What also raises the ire of people who do respond to you is when you make bold statements but then ignore questions – like do you have the same reservations about parachute makers as you do about vaccine manufacturers? Both profit from trying to prevent suffering or death, both have their share of failures and neither would do it for free. I know it can look like a facetious question but I ask it in all seriousness.
Once again I’ll take your point on board from now on.
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And
Never thought about parachute makers (PM’s) but here’s my initial thoughts.
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If a parachute fails your dead, not tomorrow, not next week or in 20 years. The cause of death is obvious. The implications for the PM are obvious.
In the case of vaccine manufacturers there is never any instant deaths (that I’m aware of). Those that occur not long after the vaccine represent only a handful of deaths compared to the millions of people vaccinated each year. Rarely are these adverse reactions (and I’m calling them that due to the timing of the death) resulting in deaths able to be medically confirmed to be caused by the vaccine. The pharmaceutical company in question in most instances will argue that the cause of death was not their vaccine.
With time the water gets even muddier. They may exist but I have never seen the long term studies (20+ years) for any particular vaccination. I’m not talking about the vaccinated disease here, I refer to any long term “side effects”.
I fear I will open another can of worm here but I don’t like the additives they put in vaccines. Some of these are known to be toxic to the human body. I know you think that the argument on some of the diseases allegedly associated (see how I’m being extra careful with my wording lol) with vaccines is done and dusted but I don’t.
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When I look at some of the behaviour of certain companies (I posted some issues above) and I look at the undue influence they have on our government and even more in the U.S. (haven’t got an exact figure on what they spend on lobbying but I can find it if you want), when I look at the millions upon millions of dollars they spend on advertising (from memory the U.S. figure is quite staggering – I can find that too if you want). And I look at the revolving door policy in the U.S. between industry and government (Obama’s pre-election promise was to close that door but it hasn’t happened yet to my knowledge).
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Oops I think I’ve become sidetracked.
So no I don’t have the same reservations about PM’s. Having said that: if I ever go parachuting I’d learn enough to make me comfortable with the ‘chute I was using.
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People are going to call you out if you say things like “quantum physics is more holistic…” or “only humans need vaccination” or “medicine kills millions…” or “it only treats symptoms” or “monkey livers equals witchcraft”. No sane and reasonable person can take that stuff seriously so people who seem to are often not treated as if they are either sane or reasonable.
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Ok but if you want to pick one of those points I can expand.

I am intrigued at how someone functions in the modern world when they see conspiracy around every corner and seem unable to assess the word of mavericks, like Howrin, with the same level of scepticism they seem to apply to mainstream thought. I understand that you probably feel the same way about me and others who post here. That’s what intrigues me about it.

Firstly I don’t see conspiracies around every corner, what I mainly see is greed. I think conspiracies are ways for people to try and explain either something they don’t understand or something they don’t have all the info on. I’m aware of most of the conspiracies going around.
When you say mainstream thought I am taking it as mainstream medicine. Yes I am highly sceptical.
As for the other people on this site I really just can’t work it out. What I don’t get that everyone here seems to be so pro pharmaceutical industry –with passion. What I mean is that I know lots of people that think vaccinations are the way to go, but they don’t beat me over the head when I present my views (no insult intended). Yes maybe they’re just putting up with a fool but I don’t get that impression.
I try to assess my own conclusions the same way – why do I often side with the mainstream and assume the mavericks are probably wrong – I’m not a doctor after all? That’s why I ask the sorts of questions I do about parachutes and seat belts – questions about relative risks that seem entirely appropriate when I see you mention the risks of medicine without really acknowledging the major benefits. I find that sort of thinking bizarre from someone who presumably finds the anecdotal evidence of alternative medicine convincing (it’s all it has going for it after all). Billions of people use mainstream medicine every day so even if we ignore every study ever done, the anecdotal evidence that real medicine works is HUGE! To borrow a phrase from the alties – “if it didn’t work, people wouldn’t keep going back would they?”
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I have got about 10 mins before I gotta go so I have to be brief now, pull mu up on anything that you need to:
The simple answer is that money talks. There is no pharmaceutical interest in natural alternatives. That’s why alot of these guys seem like mavericks, there’s no real support. For those working in the medical system I have read (can’t give you links but if you really insist I’ll try and find something) it can be a career decision to go against the system.
And I’m sure that you could lead a procession of quacks over the years infront of me, and I’d probably agree on alot of them. Doesn’t mean that every maverick is a quack though.

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This is starting to get more complex. Some of these drugs work – even admitting that I am thinking that if the whole focus was on prevention then what % of drugs in the marketplace wouldn’t we need – or at least hardly need.
But there has never been a serious attempt which hasn’t been influenced by an industry as to what a healthy lifestyle consists of. Dairy industry tell us how good milk is, industry tell us how good meat is etc. Follow the money.
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Out of time.
Sorry

you need to write it as HTML. Add < strong > to either side of the word you want bold but remove the spaces between < and "strong". For italics, add < em > either side.

@ Oh Please – good to see you back in genuine discussion. I will confessto being intrigued by one of your earlier points:
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“In the case of vaccine manufacturers there is never any instant deaths (that I’m aware of). Those that occur not long after the vaccine represent only a handful of deaths compared to the millions of people vaccinated each year. Rarely are these adverse reactions (and I’m calling them that due to the timing of the death) resulting in deaths able to be medically confirmed to be caused by the vaccine. The pharmaceutical company in question in most instances will argue that the cause of death was not their vaccine.
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With time the water gets even muddier. They may exist but I have never seen the long term studies (20+ years) for any particular vaccination. I’m not talking about the vaccinated disease here, I refer to any long term “side effects”.”
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The truth is that there are adverse reactions to vaccines – and some people do die but as you yourself pointed out “Those that occur not long after the vaccine represent only a handful of deaths compared to the millions of people vaccinated each year.”
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Now the alternative to this is to not vaccinate and this is where evidence becomes so crucial – remember that in many countries governments provide vaccines free of charge to their citizens as a public health measure. Why would they do this if vaccines were not effective at preventing disease of if they caused more problems than they solved.
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The evidence that supports the role of vaccines in public health is heavily weighted towards vaccination – many more people become ill and die if you do not vaccinate than may possibly die from the vaccine itself (in the case of MMR that is one case of encephalitis in 1 million vaccinations vs 1 case in every 1000-5000 people who have measles.
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The mortality rate of encephalitis is 15% and beyond that between 24-40% of those who have encephalitis will develop ongoing neurological problems.
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Now I have just outlined one potential course of one of the several complications of measles and that whole scenario can be prevented by vaccination. What is not to like about that? In fact what is not to love about that – and love passionately? It is not the pharmeceutical companies we feel any affection for (as a collective industry I view them with unease for many of their actions) – We feel affection for our children and our neighbours and friends and their children. If you love people you vaccninate them – the same way you put on their seatbelt, or take any of the other preventative actions to keep them well.
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It is good to question and the be skeptical, but being a skeptic is a verb not a noun – you have to be active and to seek evidence, and when that evidence is presented you have to evaluate it and its source for reliability and repeatability. When that all checks out you have to accept it – you don’t get to choose yor own facts even if you don’t like the facts.
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I have been down the path of wishful thinking. I have a child with autism and I did question whether there was something or someone that I could blame, but when it came to vaccines the evidence said no – and it has kept saying no from so many sources that to maintain another view is to maintain a fiction.

Grendel, you forgot to end your em with /em to indicate end of italics. I fixed it for you

Gracias! I groaned quite loundly when I say my comment!

Which works better – parachutes or prayer?

(I’m taking the chute without question – on the basis that one should always chute first and ask questions later!)

that’d be right, all italics after the “sigh”.
I’m sure I did no spaces before and after but there’s no way of checking.
When will this site move into the 90′s? lol

@oh please, you need to use HTML otherwise it will not work – it’s nothing to do with the 90s. When you end an italic thread you must put a forward slash at your last < em > like this < /em > but close the spaces between the < and >. I have fixed your last post.

Maggie, is there a link limit for comments?

Found it – was caught in spam. Released into the wild. Sorry.

So if vaccines are effective, and if the risk of vaccinating is substantially lower than the risk of not-vaccinating, why would you not get a vaccine?
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The answer is that you would get vaccinated.
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Andy,
The best answer I can give you re the parachute question is that I would do whatever was required that would give my child and me what I believed would be the best chance of survival, based on the information I had at that particular time.
Your argument and Grendel’s (correct me if I’m wrong) is that it is scientifically proven that having a vaccine (let’s just pick one for now, Polio) will protect my child from the contracting polio and that anyone who is informed of all the facts and makes decisions in a rational manner would be compelled to vaccinate his/her child.
Correct?

I’ve become a female! I’m honoured.

Andy,
I feel like we may actually have some common ground.
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A couple of things (I’m at work and short on time as usual):
science does suggest.
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When I hear phrases like this I get the impression that it’s an argument of “I think” v “you think” rather than going with what is known.
In regards to mainstream medicine knows best it is usually these generalised statements that are used to make a stand. There is no question that most forms of authority as well as the majority of the general public accept mainstream medicine as the best option. And of course you you’ll agree that it doesn’t mean that modern science/medicine is always correct.
At this point I’ll remind you that the world was once flat and I wonder what the person who suggested it wasn’t had to endure.
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As far as the AVN goes, I read a few of their magazines a few years ago and I remember I found them interesting. I don’t recall reading about microchips etc. If they have gone down that path since then then that’s unfortunate.
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Irrational is holding onto an opinion when you’ve been shown a load of sensible reasons why that opinion is based on bad data
Assuming that one trusts the data I couldn’t agree more.
So onto the data:
Just as you’ve got a fetish for parachutes, let’s just say I’ve got one for polio.
I find it extremely difficult to find the sort of studies I’m looking for (and therefore suspect that perhaps they don’t exist).
Do you know:
what sort of studies have been done on the long term safety and/or effectiveness of the polio vaccine?
peace

oh, please:

At this point I’ll remind you that the world was once flat and I wonder what the person who suggested it wasn’t had to endure.

Considering that Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of our planet at about 240 BC, I doubt any educated person in the last two thousand years had any problems with the notion.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth . This is a classic case of going on “what is common sense” versus “what is reality”. This is why the your statement that “rather than going with what is known.” is ironic because this was not the first time you have made errors on “what is known” (have you yet figured out the one word answer to what quantity the word “quantum” was coined for?).

At this point I’ll remind you that the world was once flat and I wonder what the person who suggested it wasn’t had to endure.
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I understand your point fully and it is indeed recognised as a logical fallacy to just go with the numbers. If numbers were all that mattered, the Christian god would be true. But it’s equally illogical to assume the majority must be wrong because some persuasive and vocal people disagree with them.
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Since Chris has clarified the Flat Earth theory, let’s switch instead to the Earth not being the centre of the universe. This is called the “Galileo Gambit” because he sided with the idea that the sun was the centre of our planetary system – and was persecuted as a heretic for questioning the dogma of the day. Alt-pharma love this story because they think they are the modern day Galileos questioning the mainstream view.
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But Galileo was using science (based on the work of Copernicus) in opposition to authoritarian dogma. He didn’t just decide one day that the Earth goes around the sun and then tell other people it was up to them to work out how (this is how alternative therapy and psychic phenomena supporters argue – “we know it works, now science has to tell us how it works”). When Galileo’s data is assessed, his ideas stand up to the scrutiny. We don’t say “Well, we know he’s right so we have to find out why the data is wrong” – which is what his contemporaries were doing with the dogmatic theory of Earth-centrism.
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As for vaccination I’ll concede that I am persuaded more by the types of people making the arguments than by any personal in-depth analysis of the research (and I don’t mean just reading websites). Almost without fail, the people calling for an end to vaccination (or a “choice” as they claim to be calling for as they ceaselessly condemn it as toxic and a conspiracy), appear quite mad – and none of them appear to be doing science (trust me when I say that Jenny McCarthy is not Galileo). I look beyond their views on vaccination and find them promoting all manner of clear nonsense, like homeopathy or reiki or listing the “toxins”, like table salt, in vaccines as evil (I am capable of checking that and I do find the truth to be very enlightening).
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Then I read some of their arguments against vaccination and try to assess them on logical grounds. As just one example, a comment on the AVN blog mentioned that some 88% of people with mumps had been vaccinated (sounds terrible doesn’t it?). In reply, Meryl Dorey said something like “any other form of treatment that failed in 88% of people who received it would be dropped.”
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Those two statements are not the same. No one said 88% of recipients got sick. They said 88% of those who got sick were recipients. Dorey made a syllogistic error – and it’s a very big error. That demonstrates, to me, an absolute failure to understand data (or a willingness to twist or exaggerate it).
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Then we have the correlation fallacies. “She got vaccinated, she got sick, the vaccine had to be the cause”. One wonders how people who don’t get vaccinated ever get sick if there are no other likely causes.
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Then there are the anecdotes “thousands of kids have autism after vaccination”. But vaccination has been with us for generations and billions of kids don’t have autism. If anecdotal evidence rules, then the anti-vaxxers lose. Of course, it doesn’t really work like that so we have to do the studies. The one study that seemed to seriously support the vaccination-autism link has been shown to have been so irresponsibly biased it has been retracted from publication. Interestingly, people who usually call for researchers to be held to account oppose this researcher being held to account.
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As I wrote earlier, a number of your arguments fell into this area – only humans need vax, vax are toxic, holistic quantum physics, medicine kills, prevention is the answer, humans suffer more today, wild animals don’t die from disease, 10 months after vax is a short time so it must be the vax, and there were more. These are canards and some are so wrong they aren’t even wrong!
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Then I note the vested interests in opposing vaccination. A lot of those who oppose it most publicly also happen to be selling homeopathy, naturopathy, reiki, etc – or magazines and books about such things. Some of them (eg Mercola) are getting quite rich doing it too. In this regard they are no more trustworthy than Big-Pharma.
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Finally I try to consider the odds that almost every government in the civilised world is purposely trying to injure its people through vaccination and medical intervention for no good reason and I have difficulty accepting that conspiracy. That could be seen as an error in logic (argument from incredulity) but given that the people suggesting it seem quite mad by most standards (or to have vested interests), I’m comfortable with it as the only sensible conclusion.
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For what it’s worth, I wish we didn’t need medicine, especially needles. I wish that magic medicine was possible. But it’s no more possible than surviving a plane crash without a parachute (think about that).
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And you thought I wasn’t going to mention parachutes, didn’t you?

Vaccinations have increased dramatically in the last 25 years, I haven’t looked that closely at it but I believe this is one argument as to why autism may be on the increase.

There is a correlation between increased rates of autism and vaccines, but it is just this – correlation. Vaccines do not cause autism, the science is in. Also see here and here.
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One reason thought to explain the rise in autism is better diagnosis and also an expansion of the syndromes encompassing ASD. Kids who were previously not diagnosed are now because of improved diagnosis. What is known is autism is a multi-factorial disease involving genetic influences and environmental. And the hypothesis of an environmental trigger for autism is something science is currently researching with intensity.

Maggie, thanks.
Time is short as always. I should get time this arvo to have a close look at the last few comments.
Firstly your link to the Australian Skeptics site….I’ll make you a deal: I won’t provide any links to mercola or natural news if you don’t provide any links to skeptic sites. lol
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And just some thoughts on the Autism debate.
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I honestly don’t know what the cause is. But when you see the figures go from 1 in 10000 to almost 1 in 100 over a few decades I don’t believe improved diagnosis would be a substantial part of that. I understand that there are varying degrees of Autism.
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The following is only me thinking out loud, so if you believe I’ve made a serious error, be gentle!
The genetics argument is only relevant to the point where those who are predisposed to Autism are “contracting” Autism in greater numbers.
The predominant reason must be environmental (in order to trigger this predisposition).
Is it possible that thimerosal may be only partially responsible? I have also read (I can hunt down links if you like) where exposure to electromagnetic radiation (emr) inhibits the body’s ability to cleanse itself of heavy metals.
Almost hand in hand with the increase in the vaccination schedule has been the increase in our exposure to emr, in particular radio frequency emr (rf-emr).
rf-emr refers to radiation from things like mobile phones, their base stations, cordless phones (also many baby monitors use rf-emr). Sorry if I’m teaching you how to suck eggs.
I don’t know if there’s evidence for a link between heavy metals and autism but I have read of that theory a couple of times.
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I know I’m making a lot of assumptions here and I’ll welcome any constructive thoughts.
many thanks

Grendel I’d never actually thought of that. My first thought though is that a child will react differently to medications than an adult. I’ll have to have a think on it.
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Andy according to http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-poliomyelitis the polio vaccine (needle) is still recommended in Australia.
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what sort of studies have been done on the long term safety and/or effectiveness of the polio vaccine?
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To my understanding the answer to this question is “none”. There is no study that has ever been done that provides evidence of the polio vaccine’s effectiveness or safety.
It is also seems that this question can be applied to all of the scheduled vaccines used today and return the answer of “none”.
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I’m not saying this for any other reason than it is true. I’m not trying to heat things up.
But we’ll leave the effectiveness alone for the moment.
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There has never been a long term study showing the safety of any scheduled vaccine.
Although I understand that this is correct please let me know of any studies that contradict what I have stated.
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I await your considered responses.
regards

Oh Please – I thought the same – adults v children. However, heavy metal symptoms and recovery pattern is the same. What changes is the level of damage per gram in the system rather than the qualitative outcome. ie as you might expect it takes less to poison a child.
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As for the effectiveness of the polio vaccine here are several studies:
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This first is a cost effectiveness study – http://www.kidrisk.org/images/riskanal26.6.1423.pdf
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The very first trial in 1954: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2281200
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This link is to an article about that same 1954 trial: http://faculty.muhs.edu/kresovic/MT177/assignments/05/The%20biggest%20public%20health%20experiment%20ever.doc
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a 1972 study that identified decreased effectiveness in tropical areas – it led to an improved vaccine for the developing world: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2130289/
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Here is a country-specific study on effectiveness from Ecuador: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2491304/
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Here is paper on the beliefs that prevent people from vaccinating in various countries (they differ a lot!): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1929202/
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A global cost effectiveness of polio eradication study: http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0264410X02005844
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An article that discusses concerns that the eradication may meet problems due to the live virus vaccine: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/150/10/1001
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A search in Google Scholar for ‘effectiveness of polio vaccine’ yielded 17400 results – only some of these will be relevant but certainly worth a sort through.
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By the way – if you have not yet discovered Google scholar I recommend it highly as is searches only the journals, presentations and speeches in relevant academic literature.
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Finally – we used to lose thousands of people every year to a disease called smallpox. This disease was virulent and deadly and was eliminated from our lives due to a worldwide effort to vaccinate. This is what is being attempted with polio – imagine, no more polio EVER!
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Smallpox exists only in one or two very secure laboratories in the world. When polio exists the same way that will be a good thing.
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Smallpox was eradicated and it was Edward Jenner who observed that milking maids never caught smallpox. Actually he was not the first to come up with the idea of variolation or inoculation as it is known that the Chinese and Indians both practiced this from the 10th century onwards. Variolation (placing powdered smallpox scabs into scratches on the arm) had a mortality rate of 0.5-2.0% (as opposed to 20-30% mortality from smallpox) so even in those early asian societies it was considered better odds than the disease itself.

Had I the doubts that I have now 15 years ago it would have been a tough gig to make a decision.
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Here’s where I mention “parachutes” and say no more except that people have died when using them and others have survived without them.
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When I read these sorts of articles I wonder how anyone can think that injecting anything with these sorts of ingredients can be beneficial to a child.
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Again, I find myself initially sharing your concern and again I wish we had perfect magical medicine and didn’t have these sorts of problems. It’s very scary indeed. But from the article you linked…
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“Rotavirus disease kills more than 500,000 infants around the world each year, primarily in low- and middle-income countries”
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That’s half a million kids from one virus, every year. That’s why people think of injecting children – because it’s the only way they know to help. Perhaps we should let the kids die until we find the perfect-completely-safe-with-no-side-effects-solution? By the way, how many kids die from this vaccine?
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We ingest the DNA of other species, plant and animal, on a daily basis – including the very virus under discussion, as pointed out in that same article. If you have a pet then you probably have more cross-species DNA contamination from them than you’d get from any vaccine. Sashimi anyone?
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Interestingly, this contamination was publicised by the very agencies and researchers who we are repeatedly told cannot be trusted because they are in the pockets of big pharma. Do you find this even remotely reassuring?
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Why are fractal patterns a sure sign of intelligence? How do you conclude that such things are impossible without an intelligent driving force?
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As a matter of interest, do you think the fact that a puddle is always a perfect fit for the hole it rests in to be a sign of the intelligence of water? Could it choose not to fit if it wanted to? Or is it just gravity versus fluid dynamics?
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And, if nature has an intelligence, can you begin to guess why it would make parasitic worms burrow into the eyes of children? Is this an example of how nature knows best?
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Of course, if that intelligence is 100% consistent then it matters not since it remains testable, predictable and usable with science. Ideas about it also remain debunkable if they don’t hold up to testing. If the intelligence isn’t reliable, then we’re all in trouble because nothing is assured – not the supposed safety of “natural” stuff nor the toxicity of vaccines.

Tell me what is being done to eradicate the reason for this virus.
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Ahh, that I believe is being dealt with by something called “vaccination”. Do you have a better solution? Improved sanitation?
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Fro Wikipedia – “Because improved sanitation does not decrease the prevalence of rotaviral disease,…”
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But even if it was an answer, I come back to my earlier arguments about prevention being all well and good but it’s no use to current sufferers. Hundreds of thousands of kids can be vaccinated in a matter of days. Building “civilisations” takes a little longer.
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And how is Rotavirus not just a case of nature knowing best?
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Also, we don’t know for certain that apples don’t cause disease over the long term. The studies haven’t been done. Shall we ban them? You’re seeking that mythical perfection again.
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When a dog bites you, you get canine DNA (and all sorts of other nasties) directly in your blood stream – and a sod of a lot more of it than a trace amount of part of a pig virus in a vaccination. We don’t turn into werewolves though.
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We wage war on infection for the same reason ants wage war on each other – they pose a direct threat. It’s just nature at work – unless you think we are somehow not a part of nature.

Maggie hi,
I’ve never really bought into the hedonistic point of view, but I agree that people’s habits are hard to change.
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If we can’t even give people a good, consistent and accurate assessment of what a good diet is, and allow “food” manufacturers to process food in whichever way they desire, choosing whatever chemical they feel will “enhance” their product (a little over stated I know) what hope has the average punter got of figuring out what to eat.
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Many doctors know almost zilch as to what constitutes a good diet, let alone what impact diet may have on health. Every time someone comes down with a serious disease the invariable comments will be “poor guy” of “how unlucky” or “she’s having a bad run”. Never does a doctor (or most people) ask: “now why has that happened?”.
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Disease isn’t a random event, it has a cause.
The majority of people rely on advertising to decide what food is “healthy”. Of course the dairy industry tells them that they need dairy for strong bones, the meat industry tells them they need meat to get their protein etc. Not only do McDonalds sell their food at hospitals, they are now associated with the Heart Foundation’s “tick of approval”. It’d be funny if it wasn’t so corrupt.
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Most of the food in our supermarkets contains artificial sweeteners, or has been irradiated, or has had chemicals added to it to enhance its flavor, extend its life, improve its texture or to change its appearance. Much of it now contains genetically modified ingredients. Nearly all of it is processed to the point where very few nutrients survive. Nutrients are therefore often added but are less bio available. Once the average joe gets home, just in case there is any goodness left in any of the food, it is often zapped in the microwave just for good measure.
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With every year out fruit and vegetables offer less nutritional value, due to the intensive chemicalised farming that continues to deplete the soil of the wide spectrum of ingredients it needs to grow nutritious plants.
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I think I stated in an earlier post that by properly addressing what we eat (as a nation) we would be closing hospitals instead of opening them.
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Even if the hedonistic view is right, the same things don’t pleasure all people. It’s in the perception where the pleasure lies. I don’t think there’s any pleasure in eating soggy chips that have been fried in rancid fats and covered with table salt. But others do. Good healthy food can be just as pleasurable as bad food. Apart from lack of education, people eat poor diets for a number of reasons such as depression and other psychological issues, it tends to be a cycle that’s hard to break even for those who are aware.
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And I think that the reason for so many poor diets in the western world is that we have forgotten the intrinsic value of food. There are many reasons for that. The main one I would argue is that nearly all of the information we get re what we should eat comes from those who stand to make money from us.
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Kids now grow up on junk food, breakfast is often a sugary cereal with milk, dinners are often microwaved and near nutritionless. Take away night can often be 2 or 3 times a week. Generalisations yes but true for many.
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And when many of us grow up and realize that the overrepresentation of sugar, salt, processed foods, dairy, meat, transfats etc in our diet is doing us damage, it can be really hard to change. But many have proven it is possible. But we haven’t even got to the point where even a small percentage of people realize how bad their diet is.
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Where does modern medicine stand in all this? When you go to your doctor you’ll quickly find out that most GP’s have little or no knowledge of diet’s relationship with illness.
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Where does Big Pharma stand in all this? It could be successfully argued that they are in business to make money. They are not producing all this “dead” and poisonous food. They are only there to provide possible solutions to our health issues and make a dollar or two while they’re at it.
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I accept that some vaccines are necessary in the world that we now find ourselves in.
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I don’t accept that their long term safety has been proven.
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And I know that if we can’t imagine a better future, it won’t happen.

Disease isn’t a random event, it has a cause.
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Nature? I don’t know. What exactly does cause a microbe to go up someone’s nose? Astrology? Fate? Destiny? McDonalds? Sorry for the apparent facetiousness but I’m serious.
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And I think that the reason for so many poor diets in the western world is that we have forgotten the intrinsic value of food.
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And yet we live longer, on average, than the “non-westerners”. In fact, you were earlier demanding “westerners” should be helping the third world solve their health problems – I assumed that was because “westerners” do it so much better or know so much more? There’s a dissonance in those arguments.
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But we haven’t even got to the point where even a small percentage of people realize how bad their diet is.
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People still smoke. New people keep taking up smoking after 30 years or so of publicity against it. I don’t think society’s perceived dietary problems are due to a conspiracy to keep knowledge from them. Rachael (Maggie) was right – people often do things that are not in the long-term best interests in exchange for short-term pleasures.
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You, for example, spend a lot of time on the internet despite your awareness of serious questions about exposure to EMF (not to mention the pollution involved in the whole electronics market and the energy required to drive it). If those concerns are right and you suffer consequences, do you think you should be left to suffer and maybe die because you ignored the warnings? How do we save you from you? It might already be too late since you’ve been well and truly exposed already. So what now?
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Where does Big Pharma stand in all this? It could be successfully argued that they are in business to make money.
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Of course that can be argued. Who says they do it out of altruism? Parachute makers are in it for the money too. If people would stop getting in aeroplanes, we wouldn’t need parachutes.
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When you go to your doctor you’ll quickly find out that most GP’s have little or no knowledge of diet’s relationship with illness.
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Oh, generalisations! Right. “When you go to your alternative health practitioner you quickly find out that most have little or no knowledge of science or reality in general – or illness”. Feel free to quote me on that.
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Can you list ten things for which long-term safety has been proved? How was it proved? What is long term anyway and how do you propose it be proved for vaccination? I’m 50 and I’m still here.
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On the question of artificial sweeteners, I once read the ingredients in one of the most popular “detox” products on the market. The damned thing contains Aspartame!!! Alt-health practitioners recommend this product. Many sell it of course.

Fail

Ahhh, life is good when we’re allowed to fix things after they’ve gone wrong rather than expecting a perfect world where prevention (ie “never taking any risks whatsoever”) is the only reality.

here’s a little more referenced info on it:
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http://www.deathreference.com/Ho-Ka/Iatrogenic-Illness.html
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BTW everyone, you mostly seem to have me pegged as a vitamin popping detox junkie that visits alt health clinics and is deep into conspiracy theories.
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Just for the record: I don’t take vitamin pills, I last visited an alt health practitioner about 5 years ago (about the same time as I last visited my doctor), I’ve never “detoxed” in my life (maybe I should), must admit tho, I do love a good conspiracy theory.
So, in particular Andy, your “shots” at all things not modern medicine don’t really hit the mark with me.
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I just think that modern medicine has done a grave dis-service to itself and us by it’s marriage with Big Pharma and it’s unrelenting obsession with producing a drug for every single thing that ails us.
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Quick question Andy: I assume you subscribe to the health issues with Aspartame (I ask that because most people that believe that artificial sweeteners are safe don’t know what aspartame is (in my experience)).

To be fair, the only time I referred to Mercola was when I promised I wouldn’t refer to him.
I do actually listen to what he has to say, I know that he makes lots of money from what he does. I also listen to what mainstream medicine has to say.

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I’m genuine, everything I’ve said is what I believe. Just because I have a low opinion of Big Pharma doesn’t mean I have a high opinion of Homeopathy etc. Although on this site the reverse seems to be true.lol
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And also to be fair I’ve asked quite a few questions that have remained unanswered.
I think because the whole thing is so complex (ie-not black and white) it”s tough to make one’s point understood. I thought I was pretty straight forward in most of my posts as to what I thought about most things medical, but maybe not.
You sound like a good guy, I know I’m a good guy. So I think it’s interesting to see how people with similar values have arrived at different conclusions on these sorts of things.

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Anyway:
“I’ll note you didn’t answer the questions about how one should establish the long-term safety and effectiveness of something”
Not my job.
Perhaps however, some attempt could be made. I can think of a number or “retrospective” ways it could be done.
Here’s an article of one such attempt, which in itself, raises doubts about vaccine safety:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/318/7177/193#B1
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Also I have a question for Maggie:
I read once that while a vaccine was being trialled (I think Gardasil from memory), that the placebo contained the usual additives (used in the actual vaccines).
Can you confirm this?
And also what does one expect to find in most placebos used in vaccine trials?
One more question:
Has anyone ever done a study to compare the rates of Austism in vaccinated v unvaccinated children?
It seems like this would be a simple way to provide evidence one way or the other but I’m not aware of any studies (& I’m quits clumsy at working out the right search words for specific types of studies).
regards

This is one of the largest studies of vaxed versus unvaxed kids (MMR)

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421889
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The authors examined the records of all children born in Denmark from January 1991 through December 1998. Of the 537,303 children in the cohort, 82% had received the MMR vaccine.
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Conclusions: there was no difference in the risk of developing autism or ASD for vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids.

Maggie,
thanks for that.
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I also found this article
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/blog/9529-autism-mmr-vaccine-connection-bad-information-scared-families.html
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which I found very good as it discussed the history of the vaccination/autism debate in layman’s terms.
I also found the comments there quite interesting.
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There was one comment from a guy who was obviously convinced that mmr causes autism.
I also personally know 2 people who swear that it was soon after their child received mmr that they noticed a deterioration in the child’s development.
I have read this account from parents many times too.
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The stats say that mmr doesn’t cause autism, there’s no argument.
My brain hurts.

Gardasil:
“All serious reports (8%) for Gardasil have been carefully analyzed by medical experts. Experts have not found a common medical pattern to the reports of serious adverse events reported for Gardasil that would suggest that they were caused by the vaccine. The following is a summary of selected serious adverse event reports that were submitted to VAERS between June 8, 2006 and January 31, 2010.”
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I read this as saying that because all the adverse reports weren’t for the same health issue they are therefore not caused by Gardisil, is that what that means?
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“there was no unusual pattern or clustering to the deaths that would suggest that they were caused by the vaccine.
ok, does this mean the girls died in different ways at random locations and therefore the vaccine is not responsible?
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At this point of the Gardasil vaccine story there’s not alot of known about how this poorly trialed vaccine will impact on people.
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If you go to YouTube there’s lots of videos on there re experiences with Gardasil (search for “Gardasil”), anectotal yes, but certainly it makes one question the CDC’s finding that “Gardasil is Good”.

@oh please, just a quick comment about the placebo used in the Gardasil trials. I have not had time to read the article you posted thoroughly, but the first thing I noticed was a possible misrepresentation of “placebo” versus “control”.
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When you are looking for the effect of a drug, otherwise known as an active ingredient, you need to eliminate any effects from other components also delivered in the drug. So in a vaccine this might be sodium chloride, saline, and whatever else is in the vaccine mix. You need to separate out any effects that these “inactive” components are having, from those of the ingredient of interest.
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The best way to do this is to treat your cells, or mouse or person with two mixtures; the drug with the components and the components alone. This is often referred to as the “vehicle” meaning the delivery system for the drug (sodium chloride, saline etc). Then you can measure if the effect you are getting is from the components alone or if the drug has a bigger effect when it is present.
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So if your vaccine has 10 components plus the inactive virus/bacteria/proteins, the most accurate way to tell if the vaccine works is to test the whole vaccine and the “vehicle” alone. Sometimes, saline alone as a placebo is not the best way to go.

Thanks Maggie,
I still don’t get it though.
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This clinical trial was to test the safety of the vaccine.
The vaccine that is administered to people includes all the additives — that’s what they’re testing for safety.
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I understand why you would separate the active ingerdient from the “vehicle” – to learn more about the effects of the active ingredient.
But ultimately it’s the complete package that is being injected.
So I get what they’ve done until Janak points out that Merck combined the “vehicle” group with the Saline Placebo group when comparing to the vaccine.
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Reactions to the “vehicle” was obviously higher than the placebo so therefore the combined result had the effect of making the whole vaccine look safer than what it is.

well it looks like this conversation has come to a screeching halt.
How anyone who knows the truth behind the Gardasil scandal can defend this product, or refer to Big Pharma as being “a little naughty at times” is staggering.
Here is an excellent summary of what has taken place. If anyone is in any doubt, they need to read this.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/documents/2008/JWReportFDAhpvVaccineRecords.pdf

lol
it’s not suspiciously like my post it’s a copy & paste.
Don’t know if Julie’s working for you team or mine!
Why on earth would I do that?

no worries,

Ken I know it can be tempting to “shoot the messenger” but as I’ve been told on this site one needs to stick to the facts.
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Please let me know which part(s) of the document you believe are “gossip” and which parts you believe are “anecdote”.
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As far as I can tell the facts presented are accurate. The conclusions that are drawn is possibly what you refer to. Obviously anyone serving the interests of Merck for example, will not concede that the clinical trial was not collated correctly.
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They will also not concede that the FDA allowed this to happen.
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The FDA & the Pharmaceutical Industry are often not credible (as you believe Judicial Watch to be).
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Unfortunately they control the game.
thank you.