Seasonal flu shots have caused adverse reactions in 251 children under five in Western Australia, the state’s chief health officer says.

In Western Australia, 55 children suffered convulsions after having the vaccination, and almost 200 others suffered fevers and vomiting, chief health officer Dr Tarun Weeramanthri said.

The vaccination programme was suspended last week when adverse reactions began to appear.

Health authorities are undertaking urgent tests in an effort to understand why the reactions took place. Most of the adverse reactions took place in WA, but reports are now trickling in from SA, QLD and NSW.

In NSW, one child with a fever and rash and one child with a febrile convulsion have been reported to NSW Health. Both children have now fully recovered.

Earlier this month, a child aged 2 from Queensland died 12 hrs after receiving a seasonal flu vaccination, but it is not yet known if the vaccine was implicated. The coroner is investigating.

State authorities are currently working together to compile the spread of the reactions to better characterise the problem.

The Commonwealth’s chief medical officer, Professor Jim Bishop told ABC radio;

“We’ve got to keep this in perspective. We’re looking at an increase in fever causing convulsions in a state and we’ve got to work out if that’s above the baseline.”

Initial speculation was the vaccines may have been a bad batch but this has since been ruled this out, since multiple batches were used. CSL, the manufacturers of Fluvax, said three rival vaccines are available nationwide and that investigators have yet to discover which vaccine was given to the affected children.

Professor Bishop said this year’s batch includes swine flu vaccine, which was subject to thorough testing last year, and two strains of seasonal flu that were only minutely different to previous vaccines to combat slight genetic changes in the virus.

Dr Barr, the deputy director of the World Health Organisation’s influenza centre in Melbourne, said he thought it unlikely that the combination of the different strains in the vaccine would have triggered the reactions.

Dr Barr told ABC Radio that viruses produced and tested in a laboratory, then made into vaccines on a commercial scale, were ”all investigated individually for any particular differences in those viruses which might lead to some of these things we’re seeing currently, such as fever”.

The TGA is currently testing samples of the vaccines used in Western Australia where most of the reactions have occurred.

—-
UPDATE: from the Brisbane Times

An initial autopsy into the death of a Brisbane toddler has found no sign the seasonal flu vaccine was to blame, the state’s chief medical officer has said.

Dr Jeannette Young said a series of further tests would be necessary.

During a press conference this afternoon, Dr Young defended Queensland Health’s handling of the toddler’s case and blamed the private general practitioner who administered the vaccine to the girl for not reporting it, as is required under law.

She has referred the Mt Gravatt doctor to the Medical Tribunal Board.


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  • KittyB

    @dartgen
    “It’s stipulated here in SA that the flu vaccine is not to be given to under-5s – mostly because of the possibility of egg allergies which you won’t find out until they are around 5ish, as children aren’t really supposed to have egg before then, but likely also because there is the worry about nasty reactions”

    It is *not* stipulated to be the case in SA. What a ridiculous statement.

    “An adult dose of *anything* is obviously bad for a child, but they need an adult dose for the vaccine to work”

    Um, no. Children don’t get given adult doses. Yet another ridiculous statement.

    Seriously- are you even remotely in the health field at all? or are you just saying how you think things are or how you think they should be?

  • http://scepticsbook.com Maggie

    @dartigen, out of interest are you a medical professional? Or if not, do you have any evidence to support any of your statements?

  • dartigen

    This is weird. Why did they give the vaccine to under-5s? It’s stipulated here in SA that the flu vaccine is not to be given to under-5s – mostly because of the possibility of egg allergies which you won’t find out until they are around 5ish, as children aren’t really supposed to have egg before then, but likely also because there is the worry about nasty reactions. Most adults have fever-like symptoms for at least two to three days after a flu vaccine, so it’s not surprising that these children had full-blown fevers.
    .

    It’s simply a case of too much at once. IMO, if you *really* need to vaccinate a small child against the flu (Which you don’t – this isn’t the 1800s, they are very unlikely to die or suffer permanent disability because of it, and they don’t work so they’re not going to lose any income if they get sick. Yeah, okay, it’s a pain in the butt for parents, but that’s what you signed up for when you had a kid! And at 5 or 6, they aren’t going to miss much at school.) then the vaccine should be split into three or four *very* small doses and given over several weeks. An adult dose of *anything* is obviously bad for a child, but they need an adult dose for the vaccine to work. So, split up the dosage and give them time to get over the ill effects. It’s similar to what is done for people with impaired immune systems – giving them time to recover from the ill effects.

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com/ AndyD

    I must admit I find it difficult to fill my comments with unreferenced assertions and so tend, more often than not, to question those who don’t share that difficulty.

  • oh please!

    Andy, I just read your last comment and,well, it didn’t rally say anything.
    It did tell me a lot though.
    As with all you other posts, no clarification was sought, no questions, no attempt at understanding.
    It seems that sites like these generally attract personalities that feel the need to attack anything that they either disagree with or don’t understand. Fear based interaction.
    You don’t like religion, neither do I.
    Where we differ is that you are an atheist.
    As a rule of thumb, atheists seem to hold science in high regard.
    I suspect that for you, science is God.
    One problem with that is (there’s more than one)is the science that you hold in such high regard is corrupt.
    When used by an industry to enhance or market a product, it has been shown untrustworthy.
    So it’s a little like a pagan god.
    Never too late tho.

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com AndyD

    Man is not designed to handle these chemicals in his food.
    .
    “Designed”? I’ll take that as an example of careless language. Presumably you meant evolved – and I’ll have to ask you for data that shows that, biologically, “man” isn’t able to cope with modern foods providing simple, basic guidelines of nutrition, moderation and variety are adhered to.
    .
    Anyway, we live, on average, much longer these days. I’ve pointed this out before. Your unwillingness to accept the fact is your problem and it clearly colours your thinking on the issues.
    .
    I can’t seriously believe you are deeply concerned that old people tend to show signs of old age. Are you similarly depressed by the fact that children born in modern hospitals can neither walk nor talk for up to twelve months? Maybe it’s the “chemicals”? (We really aren’t going to get you off this fascination with something – namely chemistry – that you admittedly have no understanding of are we?)
    .
    But as for old people getting sick as they age, do you think they should just stay teenager-healthy until a bus hits them? Dare I add – like they did in the good old days before “chemicals”?
    .
    You do at least understand that everything – and I mean every thing – is made of a chemical or chemicals don’t you? Even your organic celery is composed of a multitude of chemicals.

  • oh please!

    who are we to tell them they’re wrong because “we just know it” or because we read it on Google?
    “Just knowing something” is the result of reading, experiencing and observing for many years. People use their prior knowledge when addressing new issues.
    You may have thought I meant “intuition”.
    .
    I question whether people live longer nowadays. I suspect we may have “peaked” and are now regressing. The trouble with statistics is they are at the mercy of the reliability of the data.
    And then there is also the interpretation. And the language used – ie which is better: twice as much or 100% more?
    We have made our world toxic and are paying the price for it. I don’t know too many people that get to an elderly age without having medium to major health problems. Healthy elderly people are the exception.
    You may have heard about the President’s Cancer Panel a few weeks ago (in the U.S.) stating : “The panel urges you most strongly to use the power of your office to remove the carcinogens and other toxins from our food, water, and air that needlessly increase healthcare costs, cripple our nation’s productivity, and devastate American lives”.
    Do you know how many chemicals a baby is born with today compared to 100 years ago?
    Most of those chemicals didn’t exist 100 years ago.
    The American Cancer Society, it is interesting to note, is not interested in considering chemicals as a contributing cause of cancer, perhaps because of the ties it has with the chemical industry?
    I have seen people, including myself, improve their health through a natural diet – by natural I mean predominantly raw organic plant based foods – a few other things but definitely no processed foods or chemicals.
    Man is not designed to handle these chemicals in his food.
    He is not designed to process genetically designed foods.
    He is not designed to be able to withstand microwaves blasting into his head for hours each day.
    The list could go on.
    What amazes me is how resilient the body can be. How it can withstand the combined onslaught for years before succumbing.
    But having said that, the number of people I know that are truly healthy I could count on one hand. Most of us don’t even know what it feels like to be fully healthy.
    So when I consider vaccines consider them with heightened suspicion.
    .
    So I don’t come to the vaccine debate with an enhanced knowledge of all things vaccine, I come to it with the knowledge that if it’s not a natural substance for the body to take in, there’s an exceedingly good chance that it’ll do you harm.
    As far as aluminium goes, I have found some studies that indicate it to be a serious issue in vaccines.
    Not looking for a “gotchya” moment and I don’t think I’m cherry picking .
    I plugged in “Macrophagic myofasciitis vaccine”, Google scholar came up with nearly 300 results, this is one of them:
    http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/124/9/1821

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com AndyD

    Yes, there’s been times when I’ve “known” things were “just not right”. “Common sense” tells me passenger jets can’t possibly fly. I mean, look at them. Giant metal boxes with a couple of bits of metal stuck out the sides. And really, when you see them in the air, they clearly aren’t going very fast. But science says they can fly and bingo – they fly. I also did high school physics so I understand how and why they can fly but whenever I see one close-up, I am still staggered that they can. It defies simple logic. I don’t let it stop me using them though – even though I often see the results of them failing to fly on the nightly news. Just another thing that isn’t perfect.
    .
    Your application of “I just know it” is what I am now calling the “Vaccine of the gaps” argument in which any post-vaccine ailment which can’t be explained will automatically be blamed on the vaccine just because no other explanation was given.
    .
    There is much around on the effects of mercury and aluminium on health.
    .
    Yes there is. Much of it on the elemental forms and particular compounds (like methyl-mercury). But it often doesn’t relate to the specific compounds we’re interested in (like ethyl-mercury) or to the dosages we’re talking about. Again, many of our essential nutrients are also toxins yet we have to consume them or we’ll get sick. It just isn’t as black and white as anti-vaxxers like to portray it.
    .
    Enough to be concerned that they are used in vaccines given to kids.
    .
    Enough to be easily scared if you allow yourself to be. But you don’t have enough knowledge of chemistry or toxicity to be rightly scared by people who are repeatedly shown to be very, very wrong in the claims they make – and many of whom couldn’t spell science, let alone do it. And yes, I’m afraid the illuminati are an important part of that assessment of who to trust unless you decide to ignore the irrational stuff for the sake of maintaining your fears.
    .
    And I feel like an idiot for being led down a track I don’t know much about, but such is life.
    .
    I hope you don’t think we lead you there? Everyone here, except joh, is trying to lead you down a very different path.
    .
    Sometimes it’s okay to have no opinion on something rather than go all hardline because some zealots, even well-meaning zealots, throw around half-truths or worse. I held no opinion on the vaccine issue for quite some time until I started to read more and more of the AVN website and noticed the gaping holes in their arguments. And I saw those holes with my limited chemistry knowledge so I can’t begin to imagine the face-palms people like Maggie must do when they read it.
    .
    Yes questions have been asked about toxicity of vaccine additives. It seems, from here, that the vast majority of people who work in the field and in related fields have all-but dismissed those concerns or, at worst, accepted that any risks are infinitessimal compared with the benefits. Since neither of us is a chemist, who are we to tell them they’re wrong because “we just know it” or because we read it on Google?
    .
    If you start from a position that scientists and governments are all in on a massive conspiracy, then you can believe anything and “be concerned” about everything.

  • oh please!

    Yes I’m no chemist.
    What you are overlooking is that these concerns regarding vaccines didn’t start (at least not for me) because I was critical of their ingredients. It was because I had become aware of the question of safety issues surrounding some vaccines.
    There is much around on the effects of mercury and aluminium on health.
    Enough to be concerned that they are used in vaccines given to kids.
    And I feel like an idiot for being led down a track I don’t know much about, but such is life.
    .
    Let me ask you a serious question: did you ever just know that something was not right, without being too sure why?

    That’s why I started taking an interest in vaccination.

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com AndyD

    All that stuff about aluminium is irrelevant – you need to learn basic chemistry, not the industrial qualities of aluminium and its alloys.
    .
    What matters in the vaccine “debate” is that you (and many of your like-minded anti-vax colleagues) have apparently not even done high school chemistry and yet you seek to take on practicing scientists with your “superior knowledge” of the toxins they want to inject into us. I know you say you’re not trying “to win” but your constant search for yet another vaccine evil makes it appear you’re hanging out for a “gotcha” moment – as if the things you keep finding on anti-vax sites haven’t been raised before.
    .
    I only did chemistry to high school leaving level and no biology beyond middle school (as it’s called these days), which is why I leave the detailed stuff for others. But even I can immediately see through the fallacy of the toxin gambit. I know the difference between elements and compounds. It’s not difficult stuff.
    .
    Knowing that basic stuff isn’t enough for me to be able to say “aluminium salts in vaccines aren’t toxic” but it is enough for me to say that looking at the data sheet for elemental aluminium and equating its toxicity with the aluminium salts in vaccines is ridiculous – and also for me to point out to you that lecturing people on toxicity when you don’t know the first thing about elements, compounds and dosage makes you look more and more like a conspiracy theorist looking for a conspiracy.
    .
    When you repeat the toxin gambit, in the forms of statements or supposed “information” rather than as naive questions from someone open-minded to the issue and wanting to learn, you betray your absolute ignorance of chemistry and biology, not just of aluminium. But that’s what happens when you rely on similarly-ignorant anti-vaxxers for your primary information.

  • oh please!

    Chris I agree the inner life videos are very cool.
    Aluminium:
    Ok I don’t know a real lot about aluminium (which looking at some of my above comments is obvious) so after a little research this is how I think it is (I’m sure that you’ll correct me if I’m wrong):
    .
    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
    Aluminium is too reactive chemically to occur in nature as a free metal. Instead, it is found combined in over 270 different minerals.
    .
    So next I thought, if it’s unstable why doesn’t my can of coke explode or fall apart or something? From:
    (http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Aluminum-Beverage-Can.html)
    The raw material of the aluminum beverage can is, of course, aluminum. Aluminum is derived from an ore called bauxite. U.S. aluminum producers import bauxite, primarily from Jamaica and Guinea. The bauxite is refined and then smelted, and the resulting molten aluminum is cast into ingots The aluminum base, for beverage cans consists mostly of aluminum, but it contains small amounts of other metals as well. These are typically 1% magnesium, 1% manganese, 0.4% iron, 0.2% silicon, and 0.15% copper.
    .
    So when we say “made from aluminium”, it’s actually made from a number of ingerdients, it’s an alloy. If this is wrong let me know.
    .
    Ok then I thought what sort of aluminium do they put in vaccines?

    From http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/aluminum-adjuvants-vaccines
    There are three general types of aluminum-containing adjuvants:
    • Aluminum hydroxide
    • Aluminum phosphate
    • Potassium aluminum sulfate (often called “Alum”)
    Pretty basic but it’s all ok up to this point?
    .
    I asked about oral vaccines because I think a lot of people see the injection process as unnatural. You, for example, repeatedly mention it being “injected directly into the bloodstream”. Given that eating is a natural process, and that we eat toxins all the time, I wondered if you’d feel better about it.
    .
    Be fair – I mentioned it once in the context of putting toxins into our bodies, not as opposed to ingesting. And no, quite honestly I have never thought of the injection process as unnatural, although it probably is.

  • Chris

    oh, please:

    You see, nearly all of the aluminium that we are exposed to is not “natural”. Aluminium is locked up with other metals.
    It is a toxic metal – this becomes meaningful (in the context of this discussion) when we start injecting it into our children

    .
    The most common form of aluminum in vaccines is alum, the stuff is used in making pickles and in baking powder. It has been used as a topical remedy for shaving cuts in styptic pencils. The “natural deodorant crystals” are large alum crystals (my parents had one in their bathroom for years, my mother bought it because it was more “natural). It is a crystal containing potassium, sulfate, water and one aluminum atom. Explain to us how that is “free”. It has also been used since antiquity, surely if it was toxic we would have known prior to the start of the 21st century.
    .
    What evidence do you have that aluminum in vaccines are bad?
    .
    Vaccines are injected into muscle because that is where one is more likely to come in contact with cells that produce an immune response. They also get to hang out longer, rather than float about in the bloodstream where there is less chance to encounter a cell defense system.
    .
    If you watch the “Inner Life” video at http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html, you will see it start with the fast flowing blood, but the leukocytes, also known as “white blood cells”, stick to the wall of the blood vessels and go much slower. They activate when they get a chemical signal of inflammation on the muscle the blood vessel is running through. The last part of the video shows the leukocyte migrates through the blood vessel wall to the get to the inflamed tissue. It is very cool.
    .
    There is a reason why there are not that many oral vaccines. The main oral vaccine was for polio, which was a gastrointestinal virus. The rotavirus vaccines are oral. Do you get the connection there?
    .
    The other vaccines with non-inject alternatives are for influenza (and possibly measles). They are inhaled. Do you get the connection there?
    .
    Hint, the answer is mentioned in the first few minutes of this podcast: http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/podcast_21.mp3
    .
    Your question about vaccines, bloodstream, toxicity and in general do indicate that you have never taken a basic biology class. You can change that. All you need to do is be curious enough about the real world to take the effort and sign up for a class.

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com/ AndyD

    You see, nearly all of the aluminium that we are exposed to is not “natural”. Aluminium is locked up with other metals.
    .
    You think we needed that information – after everything Chris has posted on the subject?
    .
    You misunderstand “found free”. They are talking about it forming chemical compounds – like aluminium oxide – not being “locked up with other metals”. They even gave you specific compound examples and you still got it all wrong. This is basic chemistry – just like the Sodium and Chlorine example I gave you last week. If you don’t get it you really have no hope of understanding anything to do with toxicity. (But thanks for reinforcing my decision to side with the pro-vax community).
    .
    I honestly can’t be bothered looking but I’m almost certain elemental aluminium isn’t “found free” in vaccines either (Just like elemental mercury isn’t “found free” in vaccines). It’s most likely a salt of aluminium.
    .
    Do you even understand what elemental and salt mean in this context?
    .
    I asked about oral vaccines because I think a lot of people see the injection process as unnatural. You, for example, repeatedly mention it being “injected directly into the bloodstream”. Given that eating is a natural process, and that we eat toxins all the time, I wondered if you’d feel better about it.

  • oh please!

    Although aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth’s crust, it is never found free in nature
    .
    http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele013.html

    You see, nearly all of the aluminium that we are exposed to is not “natural”. Aluminium is locked up with other metals.
    It is a toxic metal – this becomes meaningful (in the context of this discussion) when we start injecting it into our children.
    .
    Tell you what, you tell me what amount a child can handle before there are health implications, tell me what each child in each counry’s exposure to aluminium is, what build up each child already has of aluminium in their body and then tell me what amount is “safe” to put into a vaccine for each child.
    .

    You want me to go over gardasil yet again? Please re-read previous posts (on other pages here too). Maybe you can address some of the points that no-one here has addressed.
    .
    The stuff I made up I figured was obviously made up. Maybe I was wrong. I was making a point. sigh
    .
    Oral vaccine? I made a point earlier about vaccines going into the blood stream. Chris (from memory) then started a conversation about how ingestion will get stuff in our bloodstream quicker.
    Now we’ve arrived at the point where you’re asking me if I’d consider oral vaccines?

    Certainly, but first
    what are the ingredients?
    what clinical trials have there been done for safety?
    how has the effectiveness been proven?
    were the trials industry funded?
    did the FDA rubber stamp it?
    and finally
    what does Mike Adams say about it (seriously that was a joke!)

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com/ AndyD

    Damn, tag error again.

    “Really? Where does it do this? Source please.” was from me.

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com/ AndyD

    But modern medicine presents itself as almost perfect when it’s nowhere near it.
    .
    Really? Where does it do this? Source please.
    .
    Gardasil and Vioxx are 2 glaring examples of many.
    .
    What’s the problem with Gardasil? Other than the stuff you admit to making up about it? Data please?
    .
    I guess maybe the roots filter most of it out?
    .
    Oh dear. Best not eat carrots, parsnips or potatoes then I guess.
    .
    But aluminium is a toxic metal.
    .
    And once again I remind you that zinc and molybdenum and chromium and a bunch of other things are not only toxic but are also essential nutrients. Simply saying something is toxic is completely meaningless. It’s like saying “lead is heavy”.
    .
    Oxygen is the perfect oxidant (quite literally in fact). It is responsible for the degradation of damned near everything, including steel. It is an active component of bleach – and bleach will even damage stainless steel. Oxygen also aids rapid combustion and can lead to explosive situations. And guess what? It’s toxic! But you knew that because Maggie’s mentioned it more than once. Should we be sure to remove oxygen wfrom everything we come into contact with?
    .
    I’m just surprised that they didn’t mention vaccines as a source.
    .
    Why are you surprised?. Obviously we have some tolerance for it because, as Chris points out, we can’t avoid it. Do you know at what levels aluminium is toxic? Do you know how much is in vaccines? Or do you just “know” it must be bad to inject it?
    .
    On a separate issue, would you be more comfortable with oral vaccination if it was at least as effective as injection?

  • oh please!

    .
    You talk about things in the blood, then how bad aluminum is in vaccines. But vaccines are not given in the bloodstream.

    Where does that vaccine go after being injected into the muscle?

  • oh please!

    Andy, I made up the figures in “the conversation” as well. Also on your closing comment I’m not looking for perfection in all things medical. I think medicine is far from perfect, which I accept. But modern medicine presents itself as almost perfect when it’s nowhere near it. Gardasil and Vioxx are 2 glaring examples of many.
    And when the public is so severely misled where their health is placed at risk (to the point of many dying) then it should be considered, and acted upon, as criminal behaviour.

    .

    Chris,
    How long has man been eating plant based foods?
    For a long time.
    That’s why I don’t even bother to find out why I shouldn’t be bothered that 8% of the earths crust is aluminium.
    I guess maybe the roots filter most of it out? I don’t really know.
    .

    But aluminium is a toxic metal.
    I know you like references so here you go:
    http://www.ei-resource.org/illness-information/related-conditions/heavy-metal-toxicity/
    Make sure you scroll down to the “sources of aluminium” and “health effects”.
    I’m just surprised that they didn’t mention vaccines as a source.
    The very first sentence under sources caught my eye:
    “Some foods such as tea and ceral crops contain naturally occurring aluminium but the greater proportion of aluminium in food comes from additives”
    .

    So in answer to your question, no I don’t avoid aluminium but I’d bet I consume a lot less than many other people.
    Is ingesting it different to injecting it. I instinctively think yes but I’m honestly not sure. Either way it’s not something that you’d want to inject into a kids arm.

  • Chris

    It is not an obsession. I only repeat the question about aluminum because you refuse to answer the question. I suspect you really do not understand the concepts behind the question. I shall try (again) to explain it to you s..l..o..w..l..y.
    .
    You talk about things in the blood, then how bad aluminum is in vaccines. But vaccines are not given in the bloodstream.
    .
    The things that go in the bloodstream more directly than vaccines are food. Food is mostly derived from plants that grow in soil Go outside, find a place without pavement, look at the little bitty things the grass is growing on, that is soil.
    .
    That soil is made up of minerals. Minerals are compounds made up of molecules, which in turn are made of atoms. Elements are names of specific atoms.
    .
    Aluminum is a specific atom. It is a type of element called a “metal”. It is the third most common element in this planet’s crust (I am being specific about that, since this planet has a very hefty core or iron and other heavier elements). The first most common element is oxygen, and the second most common is silicon.
    .
    All three of them combine to create the most common set of minerals on the surface of this planet which is called feldspars. These are the little bitty grains you see in the grass on the lawn, or if you actually in a dry area like my father… the dusty soil of the desert.
    .
    Most food comes from plants. Even meats are from animals fed with plants. Plants grow in soil. That soil is mostly feldspars which all contain at least one aluminum atom, at least two silicon atoms and eight oxygen atoms. There are three main different kinds of feldspars, which are slightly different depending on whether they have calcium, potassium or sodium for the Al/Si/O trio to hook on to.
    .
    When food crops are watered, a little bit of the minerals do dissolve. Actually, as water flows down mountains they dissolve the minerals, so even mountain fresh water contain some of those elements. Ground water also contains many of those dissolved elements (not only aluminum, but fluoride!… though not as much in Australia as the American Rockies, where city water systems actually remove the stuff… Google “Colorado fluoride brown stain teeth”).
    .
    This is why you actually end up eating more aluminum in food than what is contained in vaccines.
    .
    Plus, the food you eat goes through your digestive system. This includes your small intestines which transfer the food nutrients directly into your bloodstream.
    .
    So any complaints about vaccines and aluminum are silly, and should be ignored… unless you find a way to avoid all aluminum consumption on this planet.
    .
    Good luck with that.

  • http://scepticsbook.com Maggie

    How about the “s” word? The same thing applies to seat belts.

  • oh please

    Andy I.m at work but I’ve just thought of why I don’t like the parachute analogy (apart from the nightmares)
    You’re saying we should take the parachute, even though there’s a chance that it may not open, because the plane is going to crash.
    So your’e saying that we should accept the vaccines, even if they may not work, because we’re going to die from the relevant disease (if we don’t).
    But the plane may not crash.
    We may not get the disease.
    If we do we more than probably won’t die from the disease.
    We probably will make a full recovery from the disease.
    .

    What you’re suggesting is that we should accept that we will get, and die from, a disease that there is a vaccine for.
    It doesn’t necessarily make your argument wrong but it’s an analogy that doesn’t suit the situation.
    .

    So please, never ever mention the “P” word again.
    .

    Your obsession is parachutes, Chris seems to be aluminium.
    If I get time this arvo I’ll try to explain to him his error.

  • Chris

    oh, please: “Anything from the food pyramid thru to the safety of vaccines: the information provided is taintd by the relevant industry”
    .
    Still curious how you manage to consume food that does not contain any aluminum, the third most common element in this planet’s crust which makes it part of the most common mineral in soil. Do you grow all your own food in special garden plots that you have personally checked for lack of aluminum?

  • http://thinkingisreal.blogspot.com AndyD

    @joh, so you would argue that parachutes don’t stop you falling to the ground too fast. I mean, they’re not 100% guaranteed.
    .
    @oh please… No one here (I’m fairly certain I can make this claim but am ready to stand corrected) is stating outright that Gardasil isn’t responsible for some of those deaths or problems or that vaccines carry no risk. In fact, it’s been repeated here time after time that they do carry risks.
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    But you keep applying a “vaccine of the gaps” argument and we’re saying that you don’t get to just “make things up” to fill in those gaps for which you don’t have evidence.
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    For all I know you might be right. There might be a commercial conspiracy of silence and an obstructionist approach to researching those issues. I don’t know so you’ll need to show me the evidence otherwise it looks like you’re trying to stop people using parachutes because, after reading some stories and anti-parachute sites, you think they lead to death but the parachute makers refuse to admit it.
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    As for your fictional story, similar stories could be told about people who die from air bag impacts or who get stuck in seat belts in burning vehicles. Like vaccines (and everything else in the real world), these life-saving devices are imperfect and some people suffer as a direct result of using them.
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    As for your extrapolated figures, I’m not sure trends in cervical cancer are as linear as you portray them (again, I’m ready to be corrected). And will you be there in thirty years to explain to the children of a cancer sufferer that there used to be a vaccine, but it wasn’t perfect so we banned it before their mother was eligible?
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    Your persistent drive for perfection in all things medical is tiring.