[...] Seasonal flu shots have caused adverse reactions in 251 children under five in Western Australia, the state’s chief health officer says. Posted in Skepdude,The Sceptics book of pooh pooh by Skepdude on April 27, 2010 READ THE FULL ENTRY AT THE SKEPTIC’S BOOK OF POOH-POOH [...]

Are there any numbers on how many children under 5 have received the vaccine in each state to compare to the numbers of possible reactions to it? That’s one bit of information I am yet to see anywhere.

It would also be good if we could find the numbers from previous years for reactions both within that time period and confirmed to be related to the vaccine for comparison.

Wait aren’t the doctors supposed to be hiding these adverse reactions. This can’t be, the system put in place actually protecting the populace as it should?

Yes I agree that there’s not enough data at the moment.
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What interests me is
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An initial autopsy into the death of a Brisbane toddler has found no sign the seasonal flu vaccine was to blame, the state’s chief medical officer has said.
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It is my understanding that it is impossible to scientifically prove that any death is related to any vaccine. Maggie, in announcing that there was no sign that the vaccine was to blame what was the medical officer looking for?

Holy crap, that’s not good! If it does turn out to be the vaccine, then it’ll surely have to be scrapped. Odd that it’s only happened in WA, however. Looks like it may take quite a while before the data comes out.

Are all the cases from the same combination vaccine? My friend’s 4 year old is due to be boosted for the Swine flu virus only and is a little confused and hesitant (yes, I did tell her to speak to her doctor). Has this combination been used before this season or elsewhere? Lastly, what is the usual prevalence of febrile convulsions (including non-vaccine related causes), ie how big is this spike really? Sorry to bombard you all with this but I can just see the damage this could do to vaccine uptake.

@Eamondo Last question first, authorities do not know yet if there even is a spike, they are still processing the figures. It may be that many more kids were getting the vax, hence the same percentage of adverse reactions has occurred. It is too early to say. The AMA is saying that no kids under five should get the flu vax until further notice. That is, until they establish exactly what the problem is. The best thing your friend can do is talk to their GP.

hi @concerned Mum, this is a very serious problem which health departments need to take very seriously. You have probably seen the flack the QLD Dept of health have received for seemingly taking too long to investigate the tragedy there. But, having dealt with government departments myself (as I’m sure you have too) it seems likely that they are once again moving at a glacial speed.
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I hope this is the case, given the impact on public health, but we will hopefully find out very soon. I don’t want to jump to conclusions just yet.

@Concerned mum wrote:
“For example, I personally know of one case of flu vaccine related severe fever and illness in a toddler in South Australia that was reported to SA health authorities weeks ago and yet which does not appear in any official statements. The SA Health Dept claim only 1 child with side effects and quite clearly this information is false.”

How can you know that this information is “clearly false“? Perhaps if they reported NO cases, you could be absolutely sure, but for all we know, this one case is in fact the child from your anecdote.
Although at the same time I wouldn’t be surprised if the red tape meant this report simply hadn’t made it into the statistics yet.

“flu vaccine related severe fever and illness”

And again, how do you know it is vaccine related? Some number of kids get severe fever, some number of kids get vaccinated, therefore, some number of kids will get severe fevers immediately after being vaccinated.

@davidp That is one of the theories being discussed – that kids pre-exposure to swine flu last year could have contributed to their reactions

http://www.smh.com.au/national/swine-flu-theory-on-vaccine-reactions-20100427-tq1f.html

Maggie (or anyone), I previously had a question regarding the following.
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An initial autopsy into the death of a Brisbane toddler has found no sign the seasonal flu vaccine was to blame, the state’s chief medical officer has said..
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No one’s answered it yet so I’d like to rephrase it:
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What could the medical examiner find that would provide positive proof that the death was caused by the vaccine?

here is a link of one woman’s experience with a child’s vaccine.
http://curezone.com/art/read.asp?ID=21&db=12&C0=735
Please don’t be tempted to shoot the messenger, just read the story.

I’ve been doing some searching & I can’t find any instance where a child’s death has been medically proved to be caused by a vaccine.

I suspect that the toddler’s death in Queensland will be attributed to SIDS.

“An initial autopsy into the death of a Brisbane toddler has found no sign the seasonal flu vaccine was to blame, the state’s chief medical officer has said”
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1. Yes, I would like to know what exactly are the signs that would indicate that the seasonal flu vaccine was to blame? What is the specific pathological profile found in people who die from a flu vaccination? I would have thought that it is actually impossible to prove that the vaccine dunnit. When someone dies from a particular disease there is usually particular profiles of pathology which are readily identifiable on autopsy. There is no such pattern of pathology with a vaccine death.
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2. Why all the fuss about 1 death anyway. The scientific community has always accepted that a small number of people will die from vaccination adverse reactions, but accept this as a small cost to protect the herd. I wonder why none of the experts are stating publicly that they expect a small number of deaths from any vaccination program.
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3. Oh please, I didn’t think that Meryl sounded like a lunatic and whilst there wasn’t universal agreement between her and Professor Collignon, there was certainly plenty of agreement between the two in many respects.

Meryl said: If a child died within 12 hours of receiving any other drug it would be a given that that drug caused the death.

Wrong, wrong. wrong. No conclusions can be drawn until investigations are complete. Meryl loves to do correlation = causation. But this is not how medicine/science happens. There must be evidence, and right now there is no evidence.
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I don’t know how it is determined if a death is caused by a vaccine, but there are experts who do and I am waiting for them to do a thorough investigation before I make conclusions .
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Also Meryl is saying that the flu vax caused the death of the child in QLD? Is she the coroner now? Cause the coroner says the initial tests show this is not the case. It is really irresponsible to jump to conclusions when the investigation is still underway. It is not yet known what caused the adverse events, which is why the vax for kids has been suspended until it is equivocally determined.
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Maggie – Autopsy is not easy and it’s time consuming. My guess would be that at the site of the injection is where the reaction would start. Probably with infection, or decaying tissue, or inflammation. Death causes trauma in the body, changes in cells, and you can find this opening someone up. The body is VERY hard to kill, and often on the outside, there are no physical signs. But inside, it’s bleeding, and bruising, and tissue damage, ect. These guys are really good at what they do, but it takes time. Just because you personally don’t know how medicine works, doesn’t make it invalid. And I doubt exactly how they know is on the internet. Take 10 years of human anatomy and then get back to us on that.

@raptor, thanks for your input. I am a cell biologist, not an anatomist or toxicologist. I rely on experts when it comes to these matters.

Maggie, you are on the public record as acknowledging that people do die from vaccination, albeit rarely. Accordingly, would you care to comment on my second point. Thanks.

Maggie, I’m not sure why you feel a need to interpret Ms Dorey’s or Professor Collignon’s comments. They are there for all the world to hear. It seems to me that you are making an appeal to authority by stating that Professor Collignon is “qualified” to speak on the topic. I agree but so is Ms Dorey who represents Australia’s Vaccine Watchdog.

@Joh,

Maggie is not committing the logical fallacy of argumentum ad verecundiam do do so she would have to say that what the professor says is true just because he is the prof. Maggie is not actually talking about any particular assertion -just pointing out that he bases his opinion on evidence and is a qualified expert (training plus experience)compared to Meryl who is not and who demonstrates scientific ignorance with almost every pronouncement.

@oh please,

May be there’s no one else challenging anything to do with vaccines, because there’s not sufficient need. As we can see with this latest issue the system we have in place seems to be working quite well.

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The problem with the AVN being the vaccine watchdog is that they have virtually no idea about immunology and virtually no understanding of science. Its akin to getting together a group of year 12 tech studies students to form a building industry watchdog.

@please, links fixed – sorry about that. I’m working on responding to your statement that you have no problem with the AVN being a vaccine watchdog. Be back soon.

A dog who barks that vaccines are part of an international plot to kill a hell of a lot of people and microchip the rest is not a dog I want watching out for my best interests.
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To those who still think the AVN are just a “watchdog” I ask again, find me five or more pro-vaccine articles on the AVN website.

Andy,
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“A dog who barks that vaccines are part of an international plot to kill a hell of a lot of people and microchip the rest”
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Gee that line is getting incredibly tired. Every time a pro-vaccination advocate is backed into a corner they play the illuminati / microchip / lizard people / chemtrails / danger to public health conspiracy theories. Have I forgotten any? Can you at least come up with some new material.
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What would you suggest as an effective vaccine / drug watchdog model as an alternative then? I am not satisfied that the public’s best interests are being served by existing formal regulatory mechanisms currently.
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It was the AVN which exposed the cover up in Queensland Health when it presented evidence to reporters of Dr Jeanette Young’s verifiable lies in relation to when she first became aware of the possible link between a vaccination and a child’s death. It was not a rigourous formal monitoring mechanism which brought this matter to public scrutiny.

Also, there was an interview on the ABC2 breakfast show this morning about the Government’s response and they were asking Nicolo Roxon and aside from the usual crap they go on with, she couldnt even answer whether the combined vaccine had been tested!
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Personally, I see the reaction of the babies to the vaccine similarly to that of a canary in a mine. Their bodies are so much more sensitive and the vaccine is probably negatively effecting adults, we just dont notice it. Is this sensible thinking?

@Joh,

No what gets incredibly tiring is the calls for the AVN to be treated seriously when its figurehead and spokesperson sprouts the most inane and ridiculous comments that demonstrate her scientific illiteracy and her “conspiracy mentality”. You want this to change? Get a qualified spokesperson.
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Is there a place for a patient/consumer advocate organisation? Maybe? Is this the AVN, not in its current form. The AVN is ideologically opposed to the concept and science of vaccination and promotes competing and unproven alternatives.
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I have just spent 10 minutes monitoring Meryl’s titter stream (which occupies the front page of the AVN site), it’s a mix facts, half truths and misinformation. In one tweet she encourages reporting adverse affects (good) in another she is suggesting that the health system is corrupt at every level, in another she talks about how vaccination doesn’t make your child 100% immune (this requires more than 140 characters to discuss).

In S.A. they are not releasing adverse reaction figures (why the heck not?) although it is known that at least one child is hospitalized.
In Canberra 3 hospitalized children after their shots but nothing on the adverse reactions radar in the ACT.
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/flu-jab-girls-hospitalised/1817008.aspx

Great system

@ohplease, here are the studies testing the safety and efficacy of CSLs FluVax Jnr
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http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00700193 Paediatric study CSLCT-FLU-04-05.

The safety, tolerability and immunogenicity of Fluvax® vaccine in a paediatric population (> 6 months to < 3 years and > 3 years to < 9 years) were demonstrated in an open label, multi-centre study (CSLCT-FLU- 04-05). Participants who had not been previously vaccinated against influenza were stratified and vaccinated according to age: Group A: > 6 months to < 3 years received two 0.25 mL doses and Group B: > 3 years to < 9 years received two 0.5 mL doses.
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The total number of participants was 298 (Group A n=151; Group B n=147). There were no reports of serious adverse events related to Fluvax® vaccine during the vaccination period. Table 1 presents the proportion of participants with solicited adverse events within 7 days after administration of Fluvax® vaccine. The table includes all adverse experiences reported with an incidence of 2% or greater. A dash represents an incidence of less than 2%. Unsolicited adverse events were collected for 30 days post-vaccination. Very common unsolicited events (< 1/10) reported were rhinitis, cough, teething and influenza-like illness.

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These results are summarised on the package insert, you can find the pdf by Googling “FluVax Jnr product insert CSL”
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Also, it is published here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19903213. This version of FluVax did not contain H1N1.
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This is the current trial of the new vax, which contains A/California/7/2009 (NYMC X-181) (A/California/7/2009 (H1N1) – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose A/Wisconsin/15/2009 (NYMC X-183) (A/Perth/16/2009 (H3N2) – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose, B/Brisbane/60/2008 (B/Brisbane/60/2008 – like) 7.5 µg haemagglutinin per dose
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Influenza Vaccine Study in 6 month to 17 year olds
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Vaccination with a ‘flu vaccine is the most effective way to prevent ‘flu outbreaks in the community. Australia is considering introducing the Influenza vaccine for all children under 5 years. At the same time, this study aims to improve our knowledge of the safety of Fluvax® in children aged from 6 months to 17 years old. Information from this study will help future decisions on how best to use Fluvax® in children. What does the study involve? Each participant will be in the study for about 6 or 7 months. They will receive 1 or 2 doses of Fluvax®, depending on their age and how many doses of ‘flu vaccine they have had in the past. You will be asked to record certain reactions that might occur for 30 days following each vaccination. If you and your child agree to be in the study, the participant:
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* Will attend 2 or 3 study visits.
* Will have a check up by one of our Doctor’s at the first visit, and the other visits only if necessary.
* Will be asked questions about their health and any medications they have been taking.
* Will receive 1 or 2 doses of the ‘flu vaccine Fluvax® (an injection into the arm).
* Will have their temperature recorded.
* For girls 9 years of age or older, a urine pregnancy test will be done before the Fluvax® is given, and at the second study visit.
* Will be asked to record information in a paper diary about how they feel for 7 days after the Fluvax injection. Also we ask you to record any other illnesses you might get over the next 30 days.
* Will be telephoned 6 months after the last dose of Fluvax® to see how you are.
* NO blood test is needed.

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This study has been approved by a human research ethics committee. In Perth the study is run by the research staff at the Vaccine Trials Group, Telethon Institute for Child Health Research in conjunction with Princess Margaret Hospital for Children and the University of Western Australia School of Paediatrics.
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The latest information on the website says; “recruitment complete” which means they have enough people for the trial. I don’t know what stage they are at with respect to results. There is a brochure available here http://www.ichr.uwa.edu.au/vtg/studies/flu
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In 2008, almost 65,000 children aged 5 and younger in Western Australia received free flu vaccinations made by CSL and Sanofi- Aventis SA in 2008 as part of a trial that reduced hospitalizations by 88 percent, the state’s health department said in a statement last year. Parents in other states and territories have to pay for the shots. The reference for this statement comes from here http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601081&sid=alsBcFP5Armk.
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Here’s the statement from the Minister’s office dated 03/03/2009 http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Lists/Statements/DispForm.aspx?ID=131428
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The WA trials were started after the 2007 flu season where eight children under five years of age died within 24 hours of developing mild and non-specific symptoms of respiratory infection. Although the cause of death has not been reported in many of these cases, these deaths appeared to be associated with influenza A.
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See ANNUAL REPORT OF THE NATIONAL INFLUENZA SURVEILLANCE SCHEME, 2007 Rhonda Owen, Ian G Barr, Andrew Pengilley, Conan Liu, Bev Paterson, Marlena Kaczmarek
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I am trying to determine if the current trial which I cited earlier is the only one testing the current 2010 FluVax Jnr.

@oh please,

Perhaps I should, rephrase – perhaps there is no one with an scientific understanding of immunology or medical qualifications challenging the current state of vaccinations in australia because there is not sufficient need.

You are surprised by my position which is tentative – I say where is the problem? Convince me that there is a problem with the current state of affairs, you can be as creatively incredulous as you like, but it makes you look like you are trying to stir up concern.
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You said
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this is the system that I’m referring to:
A trusting public is told it is wise to have it’s seasonal flu vaccine.
The trusting public is told nothing about the concerns raised regarding the effectiveness of this vaccine.
The trusting public is not told that this vaccine has never been clinically trialled (I know the 3 in 1 hasn’t – I think only the swine flu part has – feel free to correct me).
The trusting public believes that the government would not allow an experimental drug to be administered without informed consent – in particular on their children.
The trusting public, possibly up until about now, didn’t even know that adverse reactions were reported.
The trusting public thinks that all G.P.s know all the answers regarding vaccines.
The trusting public took their young children to get vaccinated with a vaccine that has not been proven either safe or effective.

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Lovely list of assertions you have there which isn’t a system by the way. Your knowledge of what the “trusting public” is told and understands is immense, one might say bordering on omniscient. I would suggest getting down of the soap box and calmly outlining your concerns.
Yep its wise to vaccinate, particularly in the young and the over sixty fives. When vaccine contents are matched to the strains in circulation it is effective, there’s less certainty regarding vaccines being a panacea for flu like illnesses.
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Funny when I had my H1N1 shot given by the practice nurse in a rural medical clinic I was given a 10 minute talk on the vaccine, and pamphlets. This included a thorough explanation of what would happen if I were to have a reaction (after the 20 minutes that the monitored me for) and why this was so. It’s a sample of one and I already knew about the reporting system, but I wonder where you get your information on whether the reporting system is widely known or understood. Do the public need to know about the reporting system or do they simply have to be told to come back if there are any ill effects? How much do the public want to know?
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Back up your assertions with some well articulated evidence and I will be only too happy to engage you in discussion. Lets calmly investigate why the government may or may not do things the way you would like?

Sean the Blogonaut makes a good point.
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Do you really need to know about the carcrash reporting system, or how and where to report a carcrash, or how many cars of your car’s make and model were in a carcrash in the last year, in order to be assured that car safety is seriously being looked at and by manufacturer-independent organisations? If you have a car problem, you go to your mechanic. If you have an accident, you go to your insurance agent. Let them handle the red tape. It’s their job.
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Precisely because of the alarmist nature of some people, I think it’s a bad idea to make the information regarding side effects and even casualties too public. Sure, you need to be able to find these numbers if you need them (and you can), but unless you have a thourough enough grasp of statistics, all you’ll get from them is the wrong idea.
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Sad as it may be, I think one dead baby as a result of vaccination trumps 10 dead babies as a result of the flu.
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Sure, it sucks to be the parent of that one baby, but it would suck for a lot more people who are the parents of those 10 who died of a disease they might have avoided had everyone been vaccinated.

@graham
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Here is another more recent study looking at the immunogenicity and safety of 2 different doses of purely AH1N1 vaccine (thimerosal-free, made by CSL Biotherapies). This is not the same vax as the current FluVax Jnr, but I use it as an example of how vaccine dosages are titrated to determine the appropriate dose for kids, without causing unnecessary side effects.
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The study was designed to determine the smallest possible vaccine dose for children to successfully sero-convert. It involved 370 healthy infants and children aged 6 months to less than 9 years living in Australia who were given a 2-injection regimen 21 days apart, in doses of either 15 µg or 30 µg of hemagglutinin antigen.
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Results showed that one 15 µg injection was sufficient to obtain the required antibody titre.
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Following the first dose of vaccine, antibody titers of 1:40 or greater were observed in 161 of 174 infants and children in the 15-µg group and in 168 of 172 infants and children in the 30-µg group

Meaning that the desired antibody titers were achieved in 92.5% of children, including those as young as 6 months with just one injection of 15 µg vaccine. The lower amount of vaccine also reduced the chances of adverse effects in younger children, at the same time reducing their chances of hospitalisation for AH1N1. (Young children are a risk group for AH1N1).

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The authors noted:

These findings have important public health implications given that young children are at the highest risk for hospitalization and requirement for intensive care

You can find the full text here http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/303/1/37

Maggie did my last post go into spam?
could you post it for me if it did?

I would suggest that even if a coroner got to the point where s/he had excluded every possibility as a cause of death and logic said that a vaccine was the most likely cause that, due to understanding the consequences of pointing a finger at the vaccine, the final verdict would in no way mention that the vaccine was probably responsible.
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Ignoring Maggie’s rational dismissal of this statement for a minute, let’s consider alternatives…
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…even if a coroner got to the point where s/he had excluded every possibility as a cause of death and logic said that EMF was the most likely cause that, due to understanding the consequences of pointing a finger at EMF, the final verdict would in no way mention that EMF was probably responsible.
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…even if a coroner got to the point where s/he had excluded every possibility as a cause of death and logic said that chipboard was the most likely cause that, due to understanding the consequences of pointing a finger at chipboard, the final verdict would in no way mention that chipboard was probably responsible.
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…even if a coroner got to the point where s/he had excluded every possibility as a cause of death and logic said that refrigerators were the most likely cause that, due to understanding the consequences of pointing a finger at refrigerators, the final verdict would in no way mention that refrigerators were probably responsible. (yes, refrigerators!)
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The list of things that haven’t been excluded is probably infinite. Maybe the parents had a new kitchen installed and out-gassing from the MDF is at fault. Maybe they painted the child’s room, everyone knows house paint is just death in a can. Maybe they used PVC bottles or cooked in Teflon.
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The problem when we don’t know something is that we don’t know it. Making stuff up to fill in that gap is pretty much worthless – but don’t tell the creationists.

Oops! Tag fail.

Andy,
thank you so much for not using any parachute analogies.
Last week I had a dream that I was in a plane that was about to crash. All the other passengers had opted, before boarding the plane, to be vaccinated with a new “anti crash” vaccine which would supposedly save them in the event of a crash. Knowing this was an unproven vaccine with no safety or effectiveness trials done I refused it.
The pilot offered me a parachute which I gladly took. I put it on and jumped. You can imagine my dismay (and panic) when the parachute failed to open. I woke up just before impact, screaming.
Scared the crap out of my wife..

Enough about me..

Yes I’m not sure where the W.A. trial thing started. Kids around Australia were also getting the vaccine. The only difference is that it was offered (and promoted) for free in WA. Was that the trail – to see what sort of uptake there would be for a free vaccine?
In any case this 3in1 was never trailed, and given the extra additives that would have been put in, it should have been.
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Your other analogies don’t quite hit the mark unless you’re aware of of people having fridges injected into their arms.
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Creationists? I gather you an atheist? That takes more faith than beleiveing that big pharma is acting in our best interests! lol

Well I’ve been proven wrong!
At least in the case of Peter Collignon.
It’s heartening to see someone like this talk some logic rather than basing his thinking on the “vaccinate everything that moves” theory.
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Some of what he had to say:

“Health departments still recommend the stand-alone swine flu vaccine Panvax Junior for youngsters, even though Panvax was associated with fever in more than 30 per cent of children under three in the only published study on its use”

Why is it still recommended?!

“Internationally, there’s relatively little data on the effects of vaccinating young children against influenza. Some pharmaceutical companies have even withheld data they possess from clinical studies”
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2 questions:
Why would they do this?
And
Why would they be allowed to do this?
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Seriously anyone – why?

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“it is estimated that half of all Australian children were infected with swine flu last winter.”
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Say what?! Nearly all survived and one could expect this year the same so why the hell vaccinate at all??
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“Last winter, the likelihood that a child without risk factors would die from swine flu was less than one in a million. When such a high proportion of children develop moderate to severe febrile reactions to the influenza vaccine, it’s likely that we’ll cause more harm than good by vaccinating the entire population”
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Duh!
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“I remain surprised that a vaccine that produces fever in such a high proportion of children, especially those under three, was allowed to be used in Australia without explicit warnings to parents and without any formal, prospective, post-marketing surveillance to look at this issue in large numbers of children”
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And if you look at the link from Maggie above to the clinical trials, as with all of these trials, there is a comprehensive checklist for potential participants to weed out anyone less than quite healthy.
The ordinary results they achieved in the trial were for healthy people!
Perhaps the checklist should be applied to all kids looking to get vaccinated.
But here’s the catch: if you’re health you don’t need the vaccine. If you’re at risk the vaccine will probably do more damage than the swine flu.
So what is the logical conclusion?
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For more from Peter go to http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/unnecessary-injection-of-risk-vaccination/story-e6frg8y6-1225860392740

Andy,
yes I did note the opening sentence. Colligan is obviously no fool.
I find it interesting that he felt he had to say that at all, after all the article was only about the flu jab, not vaccines in general.
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I can only speculate but I suspect that opening remark was directed at his peers and the medical authorities, a message to say that he is still “on their side”.
Which I’m sure he is, it’s just interesting that he felt he had to say it.
Of course another possibility is that he was sending a message to the public saying: keep the faith in vaccines. Which seems more logical, but hey, at times I’m a bit like you, a skeptic.
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As far as clinical trials go I honestly don’t understand why the company developing a drug is generally the only one testing it.
Corruption exists in all industries including big pharma, and trusting them to always put people ahead of profit is foolhardy.
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I just don’t get how it’s been allowed to get to this stage.
And then on top of that you get the TGA approving this vaccine?
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These sort of events are how conspiracy theories start.
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And if there is anything less than complete transparency and justice (if required) regarding the current issue it will only provide further fuel for those who don’t trust the govt/big pharma/modern medicine.
That would include the AVN, and I wouldn’t blame them.

I can only speculate but I suspect that opening remark was directed at his peers and the medical authorities, a message to say that he is still “on their side”.
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That’s interesting. I took it to be directed at people who might use his subsequent remarks as further evidence that vaccinations are evil. I guess either of us could be right and wonder to what extent our preconceptions play into our assumptions.
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But there’s no doubt this debacle (and I’ll call it that even though I don’t know for sure that there really is a problem with the program) will be used by groups like the AVN to enjoy a moment in the sun and to slap the science community around a little more than usual. As I wrote earlier, a dog that barks at everything will catch a burglar occasionally – but it’s still useless as a guard dog.

Hi Steve, that’s what I get for doing stats whilst watching the tele.
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You are correct – the actual figure is 1289 reactions for 6 million doses which means 0.0215% of those receiving Panvax have reported an adverse effect. Note that includes mild adverse effects include pain at the injection point or slight fever, which many people expect and are therefore unlikely to report. So this figure is likely a significant underestimate. The trial data for adverse effects is much more accurate since the subjects are monitored and all adverse events are recorded. So, your statement about under-reporting is likely.
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My 18% figure comes from this chart (click on it for better resolution) – but as it notes, these numbers total more than 100% because many people had more than one symptom.
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Thanks for picking this up.

You know with all due respect I get the feeling that you’re being harsh. Mercury is extremely toxic (I think I read it was the 2nd most toxic substance known), aluminium wouldn’t be far behind.
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Looking around a few other sites similar to this the words “character assasination” comes to mind. Every word the poor woman utters it dissected and analyzed for faults.
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It seems that there is a concerted effort to bury anyone that has an audience that questions the value of vaccination.
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Meryl’s point above is that it is up to the parents to decide which vaccine is right for their child that’s it.
Are you saying that if she chose, let’s say for example, the polio vaccine, as being a “good one” then that would be the end of it?
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I doubt it.
If you guys really wanted to protect Aussie kids why don’t you shift your attention onto the damage that the current flu vaccine is doing, ask how & why it was approved, ask why our adverse reaction reporting system is so weak.
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There’s something seriously wrong with the single minded attack on the avn, it doesn’t make sense.
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Have a close look at big pharma, have a look at the damage they do…

Meryl’s point above is that it is up to the parents to decide which vaccine is right for their child that’s it.
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That’s it??!! That’s not nearly it.
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Her point is more like “Vaccines are the product of an evil illuminati conspiracy to keep the population sick and to destroy our immune systems with poisons all for the benefit of big pharma’s bottom line. Why would anyone inject this stuff into babies? These toxins are the cause of autism and a range of other unnatural childhood afflictions. But I’m not telling you what to do, it’s your choice.” – at least, that’s how it looks to me.
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Mercury? Are you serious? I dealt with the toxin gambit weeks ago when I listed all those toxic essential nutrients we need for good health – and yet here we are again. After all this discussion you’re still not venturing beyond alternative health sites for your “information” I assume. What’s next? Formaldehyde? Squalene?
.
Sodium is explosive, chlorine is toxic. Put them together and you’ve got sodium chloride – table salt. Saying “mercury is toxic” is meaningless without context. “Mercury” is an element. There’s no elemental mercury in vaccines just like there’s no elemental chlorine in salt. But it sure sounds scary.
.
Natural foods contain toxins too. Apples, zucchinis, kidney beans, potatoes, rhubarb, shellfish, fish, parsnip. And these aren’t from pesticides.
.
Some alt-pharma proponents actually recommend cancer patients eat apricot kernels – for the cyanide! These same people often rally against thimerosal in vaccines. Madness.
.
I guess Meryl wouldn’t support this “treatment” since she says the only things poisons do is poison. Obviously she’s another one who’s unfamiliar with the toxicity of essential nutrients.
.
Oh, and the most toxic substance is botulinum toxin which, if I’m not mistaken, is the stuff people inject these days to make themselves look younger. I seem to recall reading where avid anti-vaxer Jenny McCarthy had no issue with that treatment though.
.
And how on Earth can you ask Maggie to focus her attention on the current flu vaccine issue in a thread where she has dealt the issue in great detail as it unfolds. Or do you mean why don’t we all repeat what poor Meryl says about it?

Roman Sanstorm: you’re gut feeling would be wrong.
.

Maggie,
if you have the time & will, and able to “ignore” the messenger I’d like your thoughts on the following 2 links:
.

http://www.wnho.net/vaccine_coverup.htm
.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/2003/January/SimpsonwoodExcerpts22.htm

thanks

Yes, I agree with you last sentence.
As far as I can tell the text from the meeting is accurate.
There can often be an issue with things said “out of context”.
I don’t know where to find the full text tho.

.

Having said all that – if the text is correct and not out of context – then…..
.

I also have an issue in determining the the “validity” (not sure what the correct term is) of studies sometimes.
Maggie directed me recently to a bunch of studies showing no link between autism and vaccines. Blaylock mentions at least one of them:
.

“Dr. Stein adds that in fact the average age for diagnosis of ADHD was 4 years and 1 month. A very difficult diagnosis to make and that the guidelines published by the American Academy of Pediatrics limits diagnosis to 6 to 12 year olds. Of course, he was implying that too many were diagnosed as ADHD. Yet, a recent study found that the famous Denmark study that led to the announcement by the Institute of Medicine that there was no relationship between autism and the MMR vaccine, used the same tactic. They cut off the age of follow-up at age six.
.
cheers
your fellow skeptic

Maggie, I wasn’t trying to imply that the death of the baby in QLD was the result of the vaccine. On the other hand, I think it’s important to put it in perspective. While any death is regrettable, statistically speaking it’s far less likely to occur than if nobody was vaccinated.
If the odds of adverse reactions start heavily outweighing the risk of infection, the vaccine might be dropped (as was the case with the smallpox vaccine IIRC).
,

The anti-vaccine proponents who think people are playing the lottery by “injecting poisons” into their kids should realise their odds are much worse when they opt to play the lottery of not vaccinating.

Sean, you said:
.

“I have just spent 10 minutes monitoring Meryl’s titter stream (which occupies the front page of the AVN site), it’s a mix facts, half truths and misinformation. In one tweet she encourages reporting adverse affects (good) in another she is suggesting that the health system is corrupt at every level, in another she talks about how vaccination doesn’t make your child 100% immune (this requires more than 140 characters to discuss).”
.

The fact you spent 10 minutes on AVN twitter says more about you than it does about Ms Dorey.

Maggie,you said:

” Three died last year in the region where she is most active as an antivax campaigner and vaccination coverage has dropped very low (~ 70 % compared to the rest of Australia which is ~ 90%)”

Do you have a reference for this please.

Maggie, you said:
.

“While any death is regrettable, statistically speaking it’s far less likely to occur than if nobody was vaccinated.”

and;

” The anti-vaccine proponents who think people are playing the lottery by “injecting poisons” into their kids should realise their odds are much worse when they opt to play the lottery of not vaccinating. ”
.

The issue of risk and the language of risk in terms of how it is misused by pro-vaccination “experts” is deceptive. I regularly hear such pronouncements as “if you choose not to vaccinate then you have, for example, a 20 times greater chance of dying from the disease”. Now, for a member of the public who is not versed in statistical methods this proclamation may be quite persuasive. For me personally, I would suggest that (20 X an extremely small risk) is still a small risk. It’s a special kind of fear-mongering and one used with great effect by the “experts” especially when combined with graphic footage of a baby suffering with only the most severe presentation of a particular disease such as whooping cough, and leaving out the fact that the vast majority of babies will not suffer a severe form and will recover.
.

The risks of not vaccinating would have to reach quite high levels before I would even consider it. My chances of being in a fatal car crash are likely greater. I guess if I was sitting an exam I would get the question wrong, but this isn’t an academic exercise, it’s the real world, with all the risks which go with living in it. Please don’t come at me with the “herd immunity” argument, because it’s simply not relevant, unless of course, the government legislates to make vaccination mandatory.

Maggie, you said:
.

“You are probably also aware that the chief criterion regarding the toxicity of a chemical is the dose, i.e. the amount of exposure to the substance.”
.

The dose makes the poison is only one possibility. Another possibility is that low doses of a particular substance such as ethylmercury “switches on” a pathological process such as inflammation and autoimmunity in a subset of the population, and which remains “switched on” long after the substance has been eliminated from the body. In any case, up until recently, infants received 50 micrograms at 2, 4, and 6 months from the multidose vials. (HIB and DTPw)

Maggie, you said:
.

“But keep in mind, there may be a litany of other causes to which we are not yet privy. Congenital disorders, genetic disorders, some other type of toxicology. Biology and physiology are extremely complex and it is not always cut and dry as to what causes death.”
.

This comes back to the issue of burden of proof again. In the case of a baby who dies following infection with a particular disease such as whooping cough, the cause of death is accepted as a vaccine-preventable disease death, without autopsy, or looking for congenital or genetic defects, when it could be argued that the presence of a congenital or genetic defect may have predisposed the baby to death from the infectious disease, given the fact, statistically, death represents the least likely outcome from infection. Add to these all the other environmental factors, such as Andy outlined above, which may have contributed to the death of the baby.
.

Contrast this with the level of investigation conducted on the child who died 12 hours following vaccination, and it’s easy to see the difference in the burden of proof required to prove the child died as a result of vaccination, an almost possible one. So if it is discovered that the child had an undetected heart murmur for instance, which is not that uncommon, and quite often benign, then it’s possible that this would be found to be the cause of death.
.

Perhaps you could comment on your ready acceptance of epidemiological studies to prove an absence of causation of adverse events from vaccines on the one hand, and your need to have extremely high levels of evidence in order to accept that a child died from vaccination.

@joh,

It says that I like to get it from the horses mouth so to speak. Something wrong with that? Or were you trying to insinuate something?

@Joh,
.

Oh my goodness to equate ridicule and criticism to the dehumanization and subsequent holocaust. You just lost all credibility.
.

Is Meryl ridiculed and constantly critisized – yes. In my opinion she deserves it. She puts herself out there, she spreads misinformation on Vaccines, she is a public health danger.
.

I have no qualms with a body that seeks to monitor health authorities, that has adequate scientific and medical representation – the AVN is no such body.

I had a look earlier at the SAVN facebook page.
I’m surprised that this type of thing is allowed to go on.
Seems a lot like cyber bullying to me.
.

As Joh alluded to, there are correct ways to go about things if you have a concern with an organisation or an individual, this facebook page does not demonstrate on of them.
.

When a group of people declare themselves both judge and jury, and then go about hounding someone in this fashion the word redneck comes to mind.
By the way who’s that guy who tells us that Meryl is “full of shit”?, nice chap.
It must take a stalker like mentality to run a page like that. It seems like very time Meryl farts that it’s reported with comments from members telling everyone how the fart had an anti vaccine flavour to it.
.

I guess most subscribers here are “fans” – let me know if I’m wrong. Disappointing Rachel.

You guys have been busy. Sorry, I can only get onto the blog sporadically at work.
.
First up, @Joh, the phrase “Bangalow Baby Killer” – was first coined, and continues to be used by Mungo MacCallum http://www.echo.net.au/archives/24_11-13.html
.

Another possibility is that low doses of a particular substance such as ethylmercury “switches on” a pathological process such as inflammation and autoimmunity in a subset of the population, and which remains “switched on” long after the substance has been eliminated from the body.

.

I’m going to need some evidence for this.

.
I am one of 11 admins on the SAVN Facebook page, but with over 1,800 members (of which @Joh was one once), there is no way to keep tabs on them all. In addition, I do not endorse everything that appears on there or everything they do, it is not my project. Just as I’m sure the AVN admins do not on their page. As for someone calling Meryl “full of shit”, what was the context? I can assure you, I have been called much worse by people associated with the AVN. This seems rather mild to me compared to some of the mud that flies around the internet.
.
@Andy, as far as I am aware, companies do not have “freedom of speech” protection. Just as people have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
.
The AVN however, seem to think they do have a right to their own facts. Time and time again, they are presented with evidence disputing their claims, and they ignore it/delete it.

@oh please,

I had a look earlier at the SAVN facebook page.
I’m surprised that this type of thing is allowed to go on.
Seems a lot like cyber bullying to me.

Interesting point of view. I am an admin (i think) but I don’t participate in discussions much because I am generally too busy. Its a good source of info and discussion on the Anti-Vaccination movement.
.
What’s your definition of cyber bullying?
How is it different from taking a persons comments and actions and criticising them?

Generally when we are talking about real cyber bullying or Harassment when refering to adults, it needs to contain a number of elements;

False accusations – I am not aware of any false accusations leveled against Meryl or the AVN, all claims made about the both are generally well referenced from her own writings.
.
Attempts to gather information about the victim – I will concede that Skeptics in general monitor what Meryl says, but then so do those who support the AVN. We monitor her public profile. Information that is gathered on Meryl is that which is public. I don’t think this is overstepping the mark, Meryl publishes and preaches and we listen – we just happen to be vocal in disagreement.
.
Encouraging others to harass the victim - is she picked on? Is a hundred skeptics asking questions she can’t answer, is pointing out her fundamentally flawed arguments picking on her?
.
There are others but I think your claims of Cyber bullying are spurious and she’d have a hard time pursuing a case(but then I’m not a lawyer)
.

You seem to be suggesting that there are better ways of Dealing with the AVN if you have a problem with them. I believe Meryl posted something to this effect a couple of months back, pointing the finger at certain comments made by people who object to her rubbish.
.
The thing is that SAVN is a result of Meryl not listening, not being willing to accept the science, not being willing to back what she says with credible sources.
.
I also its a tad disingenuous to be waving your finger and noting disapproval considering the history of the situation.

@ohplease, all good points. Ta for the input, I will pass it on. BTW I have not forgotten about your question regarding the Simpsonwood meeting, I am working on a response. *busy*

Maggie, reposting this in case it got lost in the above.

“Three died last year in the region where she is most active as an antivax campaigner”

To clarify, a reference for the fact that the 3 babies all lived in this catchment. I can’t find a reference for this statement anywhere, online at least.

Maggie:

BTW I have not forgotten about your question regarding the Simpsonwood meeting, I am working on a response. *busy*

For more information check this: http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/06/lies_damn_lies_.html

I remember that kerfluffle from a few years ago, back before Orac’s Respectful Insolence blog was absorbed into the Scienceblogs collective:
http://oracknows.blogspot.com/search?q=simpsonwood

It is amazing that people are still dragging that out five years later.

Oh please,
.

“It must take a stalker like mentality to run a page like that. It seems like very time Meryl farts that it’s reported with comments from members telling everyone how the fart had an anti vaccine flavour to it.”
.

You captured the culture of SAVN beautifully. To that I would add the following descriptors: Angry and enraged, self-righteous, arrogant, self-reinforcing, elitist, fundamentalist, and fascist.

@Oh Please,
.

Good points on the emotive language. I agree it pays to be accurate. As it turns out I am not an admin. I see that Maggie has passed on the info
.

On the evidence, it’s there, not in the blurb for the website. But within links to the the antivaxxers site and in the discussion boards. I think part of the problem lies within the organisation of the site (general design of facebook). I think that bringing the evidence to the fore as you have suggested is a brilliant idea.
.

Is the irony of you last paragraph not lost on you? That is, making assertions without evidence. Or were you just engaging in some flamboyant rhetoric?

@joh, may I suggest if you have issues with SAVN that you take them over to the facebook page? As I have said, I am but one of 11 admins and I am not even on the page very much.
.
Re: your question regarding three deaths in the catchment area. I was incorrect to state this. The details of location were only publicly released for one death.
.
Your comments about ethical and moral framework are interesting in the context of the behaviour of the AVN.

Oh please – SAVN is just a bunch of people with a facebook page. The AVN is a tax dodging registered incorporation in NSW. One is a bunch of people who spend their free time keeping tabs on the other who is taking Australian’s tax money to fund their ex. President’s (is she…isn’t she…) loans. Why don’t AVN members and supporter “follow the money” to Dorey and ask her “Where is all of our membership money going…”

And on an aside – since ‘Oh Please’ is sooo concerned (cue Concern Troll) about the SAVN being “wrong” and she needs to “help them” – perhaps she (he) should join the facebook group.
.

In the meantime it just seems that the SAVN is succeeding at casting the public spotlight on the AVN – and the AVN just doesn’t like it…

@ohplease, FYI Sean has linked this thread over at the SAVN page. Discussion is in progress regarding the issues you raised.
.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=logo#!/topic.php?uid=76305414878&topic=20020

Just for your information: the tactic employed by both Kennedy and Blaylock is called “cherry picking”.
.

You need to take in the whole bit of research, not just bits and pieces. Especially if you try to drag in aluminum (which was not part of the goalposts in 2005).
.

Just remember that aluminum is the most common metal in this planet’s crust. The most common minerals that food grows in, feldspars, contain aluminum. You actually consume on a daily basis multiple times more aluminum in your food than what is in any vaccine. If you find bits in the Simpsonwood text that address aluminum, please share the page numbers with us. Because I do not believe those issues even existed five years ago.
.

But you neglect to note that there are several studies that looked at thimerosal in vaccines, and found nothing. Plus mercury compounds were mostly gone in Europe and American vaccines by 2001, so that is now a none issue. Some of those studies:
.

Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
Baker JP
American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253
.

Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
Schechter R, Grether JK
Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24
.

Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292
.

Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150
.

Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
Bigham M, Copes R
Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101
.

Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T
National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, April 21, 2005
.

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583
.

Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591
.

Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804
.

The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
Clements CJ
Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861
.

Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048
.

The Toxicology of Mercury–Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7
.

Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6
.

Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606
.

Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6
.

Impact of the Thimerosal Controversy on Hepatitis B Vaccine Coverage of Infants Born to Women of Unknown Hepatitis B Surface Antigen Status in Michigan
Biroscak BJ, Fiore AE, Fasano N, Fineis P, Collins MP, Stoltman G
Pediatrics, June 2003, Vol. 111(6):e645-9
.

Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307
.

Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study
Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J
The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741
.

An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines
Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD
Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154
.

Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.
.

An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
.

Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.
Zhou F, Bisgard KM, Yusuf HR, Deuson RR, Bath SK, Murphy TV.
Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.
.

Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006;160:302-309.
.

Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

I’ve got a couple of weeks off later this year, maybe I’ll check out all those studies then.
.
This is what I’m reading from what I’ve read of the text so far (up to pg 30 but have scanned some bits ahead).
The year is 2000.
What these guys are saying is that it seems that there may be an issue with mercury in vaccines and impact on health, but they’re not sure.
For me, this is not reassuring.
.

The Precautionary Principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle
is supposed to protect us from such possible issues.
.

So for the moment let’s just ignore all the studies listed above. In 2000 a group of people representing various aspects of the medical industry did not raise the alert that there was possibly a problem with mercury in vaccines.
.

This says a lot about the “character” of the various parties represented (CDC, FDA, The Pharmaceutical Industry etc).
.

But like I said, I haven’t finished reading it yet.
I also don’t think Blaylock is cherry picking – he is selecting text that says something his take on what was said. His quotes so far I have found to be preceded by an good summary of the conversation at that time ie – nothing is out of context.

@ohplease, you might be getting confused (or not) with the fact that there were no EPA guidelines for levels of ethylmercury in 2000. There were guidelines for safe exposure for methyl, because of environmental exposure. This was why the meeting was called – to assess whether there should be guidelines drawn up.
.
The vaccines would have been put through clinical trials for many years before this.
.
Also, note that thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 1999/2000 for precautionary reasons, not because there were any perceived problems. The anti-vaccine movement was already active at this time and had begun to spread rumours about mercury being neurotoxic. When data was analysed after the Simpsonwood meeting, the first results appeared to show that it was causing problems. But it was found, upon controlling for confounding variables, that mercury was not having an impact. But, because of the rumours surrounding the meeting, the subsequent press (ie Robert F Kennedy even though that was 5 years later, it continued to perpetuate the myth) and the rapid removal of thimerosal, the public perceived that it was precisely because there was a problem.
.
In fact there wasn’t. And as you know, subsequent studies have shown, unequivocally, that thimerosal, at levels in vaccines, does not have neurotoxic effects.

“In the blood steam it has direct access to the brain.”
.
Vaccines are not given in the blood stream. You would get more aluminum in your body through absorption of food grown in soil (which contain feldspars, which contain aluminum) in your intestines than in any vaccine. You would even get aluminum (again, I repeat… again… it is a major portion of the soil on the surface of this planet that you supposedly live) if you fell and skinned your knee.
.
Anyway, in another window I am reading this blog:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5025
.
I thought of you when I read this sentence: “I presume the issue is mercury. Maybe aluminum. The latter is not in most vaccines, although as been discussed at length on this blog, the amount of mercury and aluminum found in vaccines is minimal and, at the dosing and formulation, has never been demonstrated to cause neurotoxicity from vaccines.”
.
Did you see the part where aluminum is not in most vaccines?
.
By the way, do you like pickles? Have you ever eaten a pickle? Do you know what one ingredient is often in pickles? Alum. Can you guess what alum is?
.
oh, please: if you do in fact live on this planet, can you tell us how exactly you avoid the third most common element and the most common metal that exists on the crust of this planet? How do you not breathe the air? Or eat food grown in its soil? Or avoid touching aluminum framed windows and bug screens? (the latter I have been cut by) Try reading this page:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html#bookmark04
.
Note the bits on how you can be exposed (cut and pasted from the page):
.
* Virtually all food, water, air, and soil contain some aluminum.
* The average adult in the U.S. eats about 7-9 mg aluminum per day in their food.
* Breathing higher levels of aluminum dust in workplace air.
* Living in areas where the air is dusty, where aluminum is mined or processed into aluminum metal, near certain hazardous waste sites, or where aluminum is naturally high.
* Eating substances containing high levels of aluminum (such as antacids) especially when eating or drinking citrus products at the same time.
* Children and adults may be exposed to small amounts of aluminum from vaccinations.
* Very little enters your body from aluminum cooking utensils.

I’m going to guess that they bring it up because some people keep on demanding answers. It would be difficult to discuss the situation without mentioning the issues.

Maggie,
All these guys from the “vaccine industry” agreed that there was a problem with mercury.
They attempted to keep their conversation secret.
.

I read stuff like this, everyone knows that big pharma has been shown quite a few times that profit is more important people. Forget what was known before & after this meeting. This meeting shows that we weren’t told the truth. It speaks volumes about the honesty/morality/ethics of the vaccine industry.
.

The “pro vaccine” lobby needs to take it’s blinkers off. They mostly seem to live in a box which excludes them from seeing past those fences erected by the medical establishment. The basic rule seems to be, if it’s not in a scientific journal somewhere, then it’s probably not true.
.

More and more people are waking up and stepping out of the box and seeing that what our medical authorities are telling us ain,t always so.
Anything from the food pyramid thru to the safety of vaccines: the information provided is taintd by the relevant industry.
.

Not all lies, but it needs to be sorted thru.
.

The book on mercury in vaccines and autism is not yet closed.

Yes Maggie I know exactly what you mean.
You are unable to see my point that these people were willing to be dishonest, at the expense of our children, for the sake of pushing ahead with their vaccine agenda.
No-one seemed to get my point (or at least didn’t challenge it)from another post that the Gardasil trial was a scam.
.

It seems to be comfortably accepted here that the pharmaceutical industry trials it’s own products, generates it’s own results and then gets them rubber stamped by the FDA (in the US).
.

How many dozens of girls died after getting the Gardasil shot? And yes none of them have been linked to gardasil. How many hundreds of girls were disabled after the gardasil shot? Oh yes, not related.
Yes, don’t rely on your own judgment, consult with those who know.
I wonder how many girls, after not having the gardasil shot, suddenly dropped dead? Now that’d be interesting.
I saw many here questioning whether the fevers and convulsions that toddlers got after their flu injections were even related to the jab!
Do you agree with them Maggie, is it all just coincidence.
And I’d wager my house that this poor kiddie from Qld passed away for reasons unrelated to the jab.
.

I mention Emoto’s and Lipton’s work and the first reaction is a collective cry of “cranks”. That says a lot.
.

Nobody but nobody in the pharmaceutical world is interested in how the placebo effect could help humanity, I wonder why that is.
.

And every time I suggest that greed plays a large roll in the pharmaceutical industry I’m branded a conspiracy theorist, how does that work?
.

Believers almost never ever do this – and cling to their beliefs despite new evidence to the contrary placed before them
.

Keep clinging people.

How many dozens of girls died after getting the Gardasil shot?
.
How many people die after eating breakfast cereal? How many whilst playing golf? How many die in elevators?
.
People die for all sorts of reasons. Unless you have evidence of a cover-up in regards to deaths from vaccines, then your public accusations of a cover-up are just conspiracy theory.

Andy,
no conspiracy theory just common sense.

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Why don’t you go to http://www.medications.com/se/gardasil and read some first hand accounts of adverse reactions.
The following one I found interesting in that, had the poor lass died, I wonder what non-gardasil cause of death would have been given.
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My granddaughter, a normal, healthy 13 year old received her first gardasil shot 3/25/10 at her pediatricians office. Within minutes she began what ended up being a series of seizures, followed by passing out and at one point before the ambulance took to the nearest ER she stopped breathing and was resuscitated. My daughter described the event as watching her daughter dying in her arms and there was nothing anyone could do. Her pediatrician and the hospital have reposted this event to the CDC as the very worse reaction to this vaccine they have ever seen. According to all the information previously released the severe symptoms were being reported as a result of girls who had pre-existing conditions. My granddaughter HAD NO PRE-EXISTING MEDICAL CONDITION NOR WAS SHE ON ANY KIND OF MEDICATION FOR ANYTHING WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

Ah yes, the collateral damage mentality.
Doesn’t work so well in real life.

DOCTOR:
Hello Mrs Smith, come in, how can I help you?
MRS SMITH:
My daughter, she had her Gardasil shot 2 days ago
DOCTOR
And how is she?
MRS SMITH
Dead
DOCTOR
Oh dear, that’s no good, what happened?
MRS SMITH
No-one can tell me. As you know she was healthy, all we know is that she went into a coma shortly after the Gardasil shot
DOCTOR
Now don’t start talking like that, people will think you’re a conspiracy nut. All those girls that died after their Gardasil shot died for other reasons. Healthy teenage girls drop dead every day you know.
And even if it was the cause, it’s for the greater good. You know that 4000 people will probably die from cervical cancer this year?
MRS SMITH
I’ve heard that, what’s that got to do with anything?
DOCTOR
Well if a girl gets her Gardasil shots then she probably won’t get cervical cancer later in life.
MRS SMITH
Probably?
DOCTOR
Well, possibly is the correct word, we won’t know for sure for at least 20 years
MRS SMITH
But aren’t the rates of cervical cancer falling?
DOCTOR
Yes they are
MRS SMITH
So according to the trend, roughly how many people will die of cervical cancer in 30 years?
DOCTOR
Well, let’s just log on here and extrapolate the data……um, it works out to 80.
MRS SMITH
Would it be a fair expectation that in 30 years that early detection of cervical cancer and improvements in cancer treatments would reduce that figure even further?
DOCTOR
Quite possibly
MRS SMITH
How many girls have been permanently damaged by Gardasil?
DOCTOR
Well, none
MRS SMITH
Sorry let me rephrase that: how many girls have been permanently damaged after having the Gardasil shot?
DOCTOR
I think it’s getting into the thousands now, it’s hard to say, I’m afraid they don’t publish too much information on that sort of thing.
MRS SMITH
So my daughter died after having an injection which may or may not have saved her life from a disease she had almost no chance of contracting in 30 or so years.
DOCTOR
No, no you’re looking at it the wrong way: your daughter died so that others may or may not die in 30 or so years.
MRS SMITH
Thanks for your time
DOCTOR
I’ve just checked your file, your other daughter will be due for her Garasil shots soon, you might like to book her in on the way out.
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I’m not trying to win. I’m just trying to make a point. It’s not as black & white as you seem to think it is.
I don’t understand why you’re so dismissive of both the Gardasil trials or the “coincidental” deaths after the shots.
I don’t get why just because we’re told that all those deaths weren’t linked to Gardasil that we are expected to believe that that’s correct. And I don’t get why as soon as someone questions it they get dumped on.

@ohplease, I don’t think Andy is dumping on you, he just asked for evidence. That’s why we’re here – to discuss the evidence.

@joh, so you would argue that parachutes don’t stop you falling to the ground too fast. I mean, they’re not 100% guaranteed.
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@oh please… No one here (I’m fairly certain I can make this claim but am ready to stand corrected) is stating outright that Gardasil isn’t responsible for some of those deaths or problems or that vaccines carry no risk. In fact, it’s been repeated here time after time that they do carry risks.
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But you keep applying a “vaccine of the gaps” argument and we’re saying that you don’t get to just “make things up” to fill in those gaps for which you don’t have evidence.
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For all I know you might be right. There might be a commercial conspiracy of silence and an obstructionist approach to researching those issues. I don’t know so you’ll need to show me the evidence otherwise it looks like you’re trying to stop people using parachutes because, after reading some stories and anti-parachute sites, you think they lead to death but the parachute makers refuse to admit it.
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As for your fictional story, similar stories could be told about people who die from air bag impacts or who get stuck in seat belts in burning vehicles. Like vaccines (and everything else in the real world), these life-saving devices are imperfect and some people suffer as a direct result of using them.
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As for your extrapolated figures, I’m not sure trends in cervical cancer are as linear as you portray them (again, I’m ready to be corrected). And will you be there in thirty years to explain to the children of a cancer sufferer that there used to be a vaccine, but it wasn’t perfect so we banned it before their mother was eligible?
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Your persistent drive for perfection in all things medical is tiring.

Andy I.m at work but I’ve just thought of why I don’t like the parachute analogy (apart from the nightmares)
You’re saying we should take the parachute, even though there’s a chance that it may not open, because the plane is going to crash.
So your’e saying that we should accept the vaccines, even if they may not work, because we’re going to die from the relevant disease (if we don’t).
But the plane may not crash.
We may not get the disease.
If we do we more than probably won’t die from the disease.
We probably will make a full recovery from the disease.
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What you’re suggesting is that we should accept that we will get, and die from, a disease that there is a vaccine for.
It doesn’t necessarily make your argument wrong but it’s an analogy that doesn’t suit the situation.
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So please, never ever mention the “P” word again.
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Your obsession is parachutes, Chris seems to be aluminium.
If I get time this arvo I’ll try to explain to him his error.

It is not an obsession. I only repeat the question about aluminum because you refuse to answer the question. I suspect you really do not understand the concepts behind the question. I shall try (again) to explain it to you s..l..o..w..l..y.
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You talk about things in the blood, then how bad aluminum is in vaccines. But vaccines are not given in the bloodstream.
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The things that go in the bloodstream more directly than vaccines are food. Food is mostly derived from plants that grow in soil Go outside, find a place without pavement, look at the little bitty things the grass is growing on, that is soil.
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That soil is made up of minerals. Minerals are compounds made up of molecules, which in turn are made of atoms. Elements are names of specific atoms.
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Aluminum is a specific atom. It is a type of element called a “metal”. It is the third most common element in this planet’s crust (I am being specific about that, since this planet has a very hefty core or iron and other heavier elements). The first most common element is oxygen, and the second most common is silicon.
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All three of them combine to create the most common set of minerals on the surface of this planet which is called feldspars. These are the little bitty grains you see in the grass on the lawn, or if you actually in a dry area like my father… the dusty soil of the desert.
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Most food comes from plants. Even meats are from animals fed with plants. Plants grow in soil. That soil is mostly feldspars which all contain at least one aluminum atom, at least two silicon atoms and eight oxygen atoms. There are three main different kinds of feldspars, which are slightly different depending on whether they have calcium, potassium or sodium for the Al/Si/O trio to hook on to.
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When food crops are watered, a little bit of the minerals do dissolve. Actually, as water flows down mountains they dissolve the minerals, so even mountain fresh water contain some of those elements. Ground water also contains many of those dissolved elements (not only aluminum, but fluoride!… though not as much in Australia as the American Rockies, where city water systems actually remove the stuff… Google “Colorado fluoride brown stain teeth”).
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This is why you actually end up eating more aluminum in food than what is contained in vaccines.
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Plus, the food you eat goes through your digestive system. This includes your small intestines which transfer the food nutrients directly into your bloodstream.
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So any complaints about vaccines and aluminum are silly, and should be ignored… unless you find a way to avoid all aluminum consumption on this planet.
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Good luck with that.

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You talk about things in the blood, then how bad aluminum is in vaccines. But vaccines are not given in the bloodstream.

Where does that vaccine go after being injected into the muscle?

Damn, tag error again.

“Really? Where does it do this? Source please.” was from me.

You see, nearly all of the aluminium that we are exposed to is not “natural”. Aluminium is locked up with other metals.
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You think we needed that information – after everything Chris has posted on the subject?
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You misunderstand “found free”. They are talking about it forming chemical compounds – like aluminium oxide – not being “locked up with other metals”. They even gave you specific compound examples and you still got it all wrong. This is basic chemistry – just like the Sodium and Chlorine example I gave you last week. If you don’t get it you really have no hope of understanding anything to do with toxicity. (But thanks for reinforcing my decision to side with the pro-vax community).
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I honestly can’t be bothered looking but I’m almost certain elemental aluminium isn’t “found free” in vaccines either (Just like elemental mercury isn’t “found free” in vaccines). It’s most likely a salt of aluminium.
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Do you even understand what elemental and salt mean in this context?
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I asked about oral vaccines because I think a lot of people see the injection process as unnatural. You, for example, repeatedly mention it being “injected directly into the bloodstream”. Given that eating is a natural process, and that we eat toxins all the time, I wondered if you’d feel better about it.

Chris I agree the inner life videos are very cool.
Aluminium:
Ok I don’t know a real lot about aluminium (which looking at some of my above comments is obvious) so after a little research this is how I think it is (I’m sure that you’ll correct me if I’m wrong):
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From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium
Aluminium is too reactive chemically to occur in nature as a free metal. Instead, it is found combined in over 270 different minerals.
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So next I thought, if it’s unstable why doesn’t my can of coke explode or fall apart or something? From:
(http://www.madehow.com/Volume-2/Aluminum-Beverage-Can.html)
The raw material of the aluminum beverage can is, of course, aluminum. Aluminum is derived from an ore called bauxite. U.S. aluminum producers import bauxite, primarily from Jamaica and Guinea. The bauxite is refined and then smelted, and the resulting molten aluminum is cast into ingots The aluminum base, for beverage cans consists mostly of aluminum, but it contains small amounts of other metals as well. These are typically 1% magnesium, 1% manganese, 0.4% iron, 0.2% silicon, and 0.15% copper.
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So when we say “made from aluminium”, it’s actually made from a number of ingerdients, it’s an alloy. If this is wrong let me know.
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Ok then I thought what sort of aluminium do they put in vaccines?

From http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/aluminum-adjuvants-vaccines
There are three general types of aluminum-containing adjuvants:
• Aluminum hydroxide
• Aluminum phosphate
• Potassium aluminum sulfate (often called “Alum”)
Pretty basic but it’s all ok up to this point?
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I asked about oral vaccines because I think a lot of people see the injection process as unnatural. You, for example, repeatedly mention it being “injected directly into the bloodstream”. Given that eating is a natural process, and that we eat toxins all the time, I wondered if you’d feel better about it.
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Be fair – I mentioned it once in the context of putting toxins into our bodies, not as opposed to ingesting. And no, quite honestly I have never thought of the injection process as unnatural, although it probably is.

Yes I’m no chemist.
What you are overlooking is that these concerns regarding vaccines didn’t start (at least not for me) because I was critical of their ingredients. It was because I had become aware of the question of safety issues surrounding some vaccines.
There is much around on the effects of mercury and aluminium on health.
Enough to be concerned that they are used in vaccines given to kids.
And I feel like an idiot for being led down a track I don’t know much about, but such is life.
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Let me ask you a serious question: did you ever just know that something was not right, without being too sure why?

That’s why I started taking an interest in vaccination.

who are we to tell them they’re wrong because “we just know it” or because we read it on Google?
“Just knowing something” is the result of reading, experiencing and observing for many years. People use their prior knowledge when addressing new issues.
You may have thought I meant “intuition”.
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I question whether people live longer nowadays. I suspect we may have “peaked” and are now regressing. The trouble with statistics is they are at the mercy of the reliability of the data.
And then there is also the interpretation. And the language used – ie which is better: twice as much or 100% more?
We have made our world toxic and are paying the price for it. I don’t know too many people that get to an elderly age without having medium to major health problems. Healthy elderly people are the exception.
You may have heard about the President’s Cancer Panel a few weeks ago (in the U.S.) stating : “The panel urges you most strongly to use the power of your office to remove the carcinogens and other toxins from our food, water, and air that needlessly increase healthcare costs, cripple our nation’s productivity, and devastate American lives”.
Do you know how many chemicals a baby is born with today compared to 100 years ago?
Most of those chemicals didn’t exist 100 years ago.
The American Cancer Society, it is interesting to note, is not interested in considering chemicals as a contributing cause of cancer, perhaps because of the ties it has with the chemical industry?
I have seen people, including myself, improve their health through a natural diet – by natural I mean predominantly raw organic plant based foods – a few other things but definitely no processed foods or chemicals.
Man is not designed to handle these chemicals in his food.
He is not designed to process genetically designed foods.
He is not designed to be able to withstand microwaves blasting into his head for hours each day.
The list could go on.
What amazes me is how resilient the body can be. How it can withstand the combined onslaught for years before succumbing.
But having said that, the number of people I know that are truly healthy I could count on one hand. Most of us don’t even know what it feels like to be fully healthy.
So when I consider vaccines consider them with heightened suspicion.
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So I don’t come to the vaccine debate with an enhanced knowledge of all things vaccine, I come to it with the knowledge that if it’s not a natural substance for the body to take in, there’s an exceedingly good chance that it’ll do you harm.
As far as aluminium goes, I have found some studies that indicate it to be a serious issue in vaccines.
Not looking for a “gotchya” moment and I don’t think I’m cherry picking .
I plugged in “Macrophagic myofasciitis vaccine”, Google scholar came up with nearly 300 results, this is one of them:
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/124/9/1821

Andy, I just read your last comment and,well, it didn’t rally say anything.
It did tell me a lot though.
As with all you other posts, no clarification was sought, no questions, no attempt at understanding.
It seems that sites like these generally attract personalities that feel the need to attack anything that they either disagree with or don’t understand. Fear based interaction.
You don’t like religion, neither do I.
Where we differ is that you are an atheist.
As a rule of thumb, atheists seem to hold science in high regard.
I suspect that for you, science is God.
One problem with that is (there’s more than one)is the science that you hold in such high regard is corrupt.
When used by an industry to enhance or market a product, it has been shown untrustworthy.
So it’s a little like a pagan god.
Never too late tho.

This is weird. Why did they give the vaccine to under-5s? It’s stipulated here in SA that the flu vaccine is not to be given to under-5s – mostly because of the possibility of egg allergies which you won’t find out until they are around 5ish, as children aren’t really supposed to have egg before then, but likely also because there is the worry about nasty reactions. Most adults have fever-like symptoms for at least two to three days after a flu vaccine, so it’s not surprising that these children had full-blown fevers.
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It’s simply a case of too much at once. IMO, if you *really* need to vaccinate a small child against the flu (Which you don’t – this isn’t the 1800s, they are very unlikely to die or suffer permanent disability because of it, and they don’t work so they’re not going to lose any income if they get sick. Yeah, okay, it’s a pain in the butt for parents, but that’s what you signed up for when you had a kid! And at 5 or 6, they aren’t going to miss much at school.) then the vaccine should be split into three or four *very* small doses and given over several weeks. An adult dose of *anything* is obviously bad for a child, but they need an adult dose for the vaccine to work. So, split up the dosage and give them time to get over the ill effects. It’s similar to what is done for people with impaired immune systems – giving them time to recover from the ill effects.

@dartgen
“It’s stipulated here in SA that the flu vaccine is not to be given to under-5s – mostly because of the possibility of egg allergies which you won’t find out until they are around 5ish, as children aren’t really supposed to have egg before then, but likely also because there is the worry about nasty reactions”

It is *not* stipulated to be the case in SA. What a ridiculous statement.

“An adult dose of *anything* is obviously bad for a child, but they need an adult dose for the vaccine to work”

Um, no. Children don’t get given adult doses. Yet another ridiculous statement.

Seriously- are you even remotely in the health field at all? or are you just saying how you think things are or how you think they should be?